Please help me to read this English sentence:

[Koir]

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

This is one of those English figures of speech which must be quite confusing for non-native speakers. Saying "... X, not to mention Y" is actually a way of stating that Y applies even more strongly to the subject than X does. Other forms with the same effect are "... X, much less Y", "... X, let alone Y", and "... X, to say nothing of Y".

I think most native English speakers use these expressions automatically to achieve this effect, without thinking about the literal meaning of the words used. Since I never think about it either, answering this question was rather difficult for me.

I found out that these expressions all come from an old technique of rhetoric (called paralipsis), in which the speaker calls attention to something by pretending not to mention it. I knew nothing about the origins of this before looking up these phrases to answer YuriTokoro's puzzlement, so even we experienced English speakers can definitely learn something here.

Heh, thanks for the better explanation. As you say, expressing concepts that way is automatic for native English speakers but creates a lot of confusion for speakers of other languages such as Japanese.

That's why I provided a simpler revision that would be easier to understand but express the same concepts.

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Koir

I'd better stop about that subject before I rant further...

OK. You must have too much something in your mind.

Not really, Yuri. I wanted to ensure that I didn't speak dismissively about Japanese culture.

Thanks for the thought.

After a few times of being dried, they do. So I get shirts one size larger to make them last longer before getting too small to wear.

Genius!

In the sentence context, "not to mention" is used in a way to bring emphasis to the concept that comes after it (continued success) and link it to the previous concept (reason JapanForum was created). This way, it creates a sense of time for the reader connecting the past to the future.

Alternatively, the sentence could be revised to the following to eliminate confusion:

"It's helpful individuals such as you that provide the reason this forum was made, and also its continued success."

Hope that helps increase understanding and reduces confusion, Yuri!

Koir, thanks; but I still have a question…

It's helpful individuals such as you that provide the reason this forum was made, not to mention its continued success.

Does “its” mean “JF’s”?
“not to mention its continued success” = “to say nothing of JF’s continued success” ?
You mean “JF has been going well and it is needless to say” with “not to mention its continued success” ?

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

This is one of those English figures of speech which must be quite confusing for non-native speakers. Saying "... X, not to mention Y" is actually a way of stating that Y applies even more strongly to the subject than X does. Other forms with the same effect are "... X, much less Y", "... X, let alone Y", and "... X, to say nothing of Y".

ColinHowell, thank you!

“…X, much less Y.”
“…X, let alone Y.”
“…X, to say nothing of Y,”

I didn’t know these expressions. Thank you very much.
「Yについては言うまでもないが、Xは…だ」

I found this example sentence below in an internet dictionary.
彼は、洋服の趣味の悪さは言うまでもないが、退屈な人 間です。
He is boring, to say nothing of his bad taste in clothes.

I learned! Thank you!!

[thatkid]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Thank you, this question has been answered.
If you'd like to help, please see my latest question at the end of the thread.

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Hi, I'm Yuri from Japan.
I cant't understand this sentence:

"How does a belief in luck change the way a person reacts to good or bad fortune?"

What does "a belief in luck" mean?
Does it mean like "to believe that I'm happy" or "to believe that there are lucky people and unlucky people" ???
Anybody, help me, please.
Thank you!

Believing in luck means you believe in a set pattern in life. It's asking how a person who believes this, maybe you, would take it when something "good" or "bad" happens. You feel "good" knowing you have "good luck" when "good things" happen. If "bad" things happen you feel "bad". People who think luck is the reason for "good" or "bad" in life tend to feel like they can't escape it until it changes on its own. Its called "destiny". Its an unhealthy thought pattern kiddo.

[Koir]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Does “its” mean “JF’s”?
“not to mention its continued success” = “to say nothing of JF’s continued success” ?
You mean “JF has been going well and it is needless to say” with “not to mention its continued success” ?

In this case, "it's" is a contraction of "It is" and refers to the role individuals like you play in keeping JapanForum a successful site on the internet for cultural exchange.

The two phrases you quoted have essentially the same meaning, as Colin Howell pointed out (mentioning something by apparently not mentioning it). However, both phrases cannot be used in the same sentence as they require slightly different contexts and sentence structures. That way, the concept of getting the reader's attention to a concept by appearing not to mention it is communicated successfully.

Apologies if I continue to cause confusion, Yuri. As ColinHowell wrote earlier, this is a case of a native English speaker using a complex expression to communicate concepts without truly knowing what is being said.

[YuriTokoro]

Does “its” mean “JF’s”?

Originally Posted by Koir

In this case, "it's" is a contraction of "It is" and refers to the role individuals like you play in keeping JapanForum a successful site on the internet for cultural exchange.

Hi, Koir. I’m sorry for being so slow to answer.
Thank you for helping as always.

So, in this case, “its” means “the role individuals like you play in keeping JapanForum a successful site on the internet for cultural exchange.”
(However, this seems to be too long.....)
“not to mention its continued success” = “not to mention the role individuals’ success”.
Is this right?
You mean “not to mention that we are doing very well in this forum”, don’t you?

The two phrases you quoted have essentially the same meaning, as Colin Howell pointed out (mentioning something by apparently not mentioning it). However, both phrases cannot be used in the same sentence as they require slightly different contexts and sentence structures. That way, the concept of getting the reader's attention to a concept by appearing not to mention it is communicated successfully.

They require slightly different contexts and sentence structures?
So, that’s not to say that I can say any of them instead of “not to mention”, right?
“…X, much less Y.”
“…X, let alone Y.”
“…X, to say nothing of Y,”

What are the differences among them?
If I say “It's helpful individuals such as you that provide the reason this forum was made, to say nothing of its continued success.”, is this strange?

Apologies if I continue to cause confusion, Yuri. As ColinHowell wrote earlier, this is a case of a native English speaker using a complex expression to communicate concepts without truly knowing what is being said.

I apologies, too.
My inapprehension seems to be too terrible.
Koir, Thanks.

[Koir]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

So, in this case, “its” means “the role individuals like you play in keeping JapanForum a successful site on the internet for cultural exchange.”
(However, this seems to be too long.....)

The meaning of "it's" in this context is not interchangeable with the longer phrase for the reason you state (too long). In this sentence, I have essentially restated the subject (individuals like you) three times to provide emphasis and an indirect reference to you personally. I did this because I was unsure how such a direct form of address would be received, and ended up overwriting the sentence and causing confusion.

“not to mention its continued success” = “not to mention the role individuals’ success”.
Is this right?

This is the collective pronoun "its", which is different from "it's" (or it is). "Its" is a word used in this context to refer to an object that is not a person (JapanForum), and functions as a subject for "continued success" to refer to without restating the subject by name a second time.

This is a very easy mistake to make, even for native English speakers.

You mean “not to mention that we are doing very well in this forum”, don’t you?

Essentially, yes. At least in this thread, which is a very welcome part of the forum that keeps me interested and challenged.

They require slightly different contexts and sentence structures?
So, that’s not to say that I can say any of them instead of “not to mention”, right?
“…X, much less Y.”
“…X, let alone Y.”
“…X, to say nothing of Y,”

What are the differences among them?

"...X, much less Y." - in this case, the phrases or concepts of X and Y are thought of as equal worth to the speaker. They may be related in a way that one concept is a result of the other, and so cannot be considered separately.

"...X, let alone Y." - in this case, X is given more emphasis or "weight" by the speaker as a separate concept. "Y" is a concept that has almost the same emphasis as "X", but can be separate from "X". Concept "Y" 's presence in the speaker's statement functions as an addition to "X" mainly to show that "Y" is not specifically needed to understand the statement. It is there to add weight or emphasis to the statement, should the reader need additional information to understand the sentence's concepts.

"...X, to say nothing of Y." - in this case, X and Y are completely separate concepts that have equal emphasis or weight to the speaker. Concept "Y" appears as a separate concept that could be in its own sentence, but making a separate sentence would duplicate concepts or context.

If I say “It's helpful individuals such as you that provide the reason this forum was made, to say nothing of its continued success.”, is this strange?

It's not strange, Yuri. In fact, it's exactly right!

I apologies, too.
My inapprehension seems to be too terrible.
Koir, Thanks.

You're welcome, Yuri. I hope my explanations can be of some use.

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Koir

This is the collective pronoun "its", which is different from "it's" (or it is).

Hi, Koir. Thanks!!
I didn’t know “its” is a collective pronoun, or what “a collective pronoun” was.
I didn’t know “its” is different from “it’s”.

"Its" is a word used in this context to refer to an object that is not a person (JapanForum),

Does this mean “its” can’t mean A person? Do you mean “its” means people?

and functions as a subject for "continued success" to refer to without restating the subject by name a second time.

Sorry, I don’t know what the subject for “continued success”.
This is what I want to know.

This is a very easy mistake to make, even for native English speakers.

Do you mean that some native English speakers confound “it’s” with “its”?

Essentially, yes. At least in this thread, which is a very welcome part of the forum that keeps me interested and challenged.

So, the subject for “continue success” is “people in this forum”?

Koir, I’m sorry. I’m slow in comprehension.
Thank you for the very kind answers about "...X, much less Y.", "...X, let alone Y." and "...X, to say nothing of Y."

[Koir]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Hi, Koir. Thanks!!
I didn’t know “its” is a collective pronoun, or what “a collective pronoun” was.
I didn’t know “its” is different from “it’s”.

They are different words, even though the only difference between them is a single quote mark ( ' ).

Does this mean “its” can’t mean A person? Do you mean “its” means people?

Your first observation was correct. "Its" cannot mean a person. If a person was being referred to in the sentence "his" or "hers" would be used, depending on the gender of the individual.

Sorry, I don’t know what the subject for “continued success”.
This is what I want to know.

In this context, the subject of "continued success" is "JapanForum". As stated before, the pronoun "its" is used so "JapanForum" is not used a second time in the same sentence. This results in less confusion for the reader and a smoother reading experience.

Do you mean that some native English speakers confuse “it’s” with “its”?

All the time, Yuri. Trying to type too fast, plain laziness, or assuming the reader knows the context of the sentence without accurate grammar are all reason why this kind of mistake continues to be made in English writing.

So, the subject for “continued success” is “people in this forum”?

*nods* Correct. "People in this forum" as the general subject, with emphasis on people like you (native Japanese individuals) who have a wealth of knowledge to share about the people and their culture.

Koir, I’m sorry. I’m slow in comprehension.

No problem, Yuri. This is what learning language is all about, after all.

Thank you for the very kind answers about "...X, much less Y.", "...X, let alone Y." and "...X, to say nothing of Y."

I apologize if they appeared too formal and confusing. They certainly appeared that way to me after I read them a few times. I should have provided useful examples as well to increase understanding

Have a great day, Yuri!

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Koir

Your first observation was correct.

Hi, Koir.
What about my second observation?

In this context, the subject of "continued success" is "JapanForum". As stated before, the pronoun "its" is used so "JapanForum" is not used a second time in the same sentence. This results in less confusion for the reader and a smoother reading experience.

Thanks! Now I think I understand what you meant.
This sentence means like this?
“Many people here help each other and that’s why this forum was made, and as we all know JapanForum is working very well.”

All the time, Yuri. Trying to type too fast, plain laziness, or assuming the reader knows the context of the sentence without accurate grammar are all reason why this kind of mistake continues to be made in English writing.

I see. These words sound the same, don’t they?
There are many Japanese words which have same pronunciation and different kanji. Many people make mistakes when they write kanji all the time.

*nods* Correct. "People in this forum" as the general subject, with emphasis on people like you (native Japanese individuals) who have a wealth of knowledge to share about the people and their culture.

So, the sentence means like this?
“Many people in JapanForum help each other and that’s why this forum was made, and as we all know we are doing very well here.”

I apologize if they appeared too formal and confusing. They certainly appeared that way to me after I read them a few times. I should have provided useful examples as well to increase understanding

There is no need to apologize.
Asking questions is very educational.

Have a great day, Yuri!

You too, Koir.