Please help me to read this English sentence:

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

**** To me this sentence reads correctly, but it is what we call a 'fragment'. You could try making it more explanatory. "You dig up the clams with a small rake." or "You use a small rake to dig up the clams".

Hi, Columbine.
Thank you!
I have a question.
If I wrote like this, would you think it’s natural?
“Have you ever done this? You dig up the clams with a small rake.”
This is a bit strange to me, because the writer in not sure the reader have dug clams, and the second sentence comes after that. I know that the first “you” means readers, and the second “you” is formal.
However, Japanese (just maybe only me) would think it sounds strange that “I don’t know whether you have done this. You do this.”
What would you write?

The country/countries thing is complicated. I'm not sure 'countries' is ~incorrect~ but to me 'country' sounds more natural. The best way I can thin to describe it is that although the tourists might go to ~many~ different countries, the 'you' you are addressing seems to be singular. That is, it's like you're talking to one person, who of course, can only live in one country at a time. However, even if we're talking to more than one person, you still hear people use plurals like this when they are directly addressing a crowd using 'you'. Politicians do it a lot because it sounds like you're considering each person individually, even if they're part of a big group.

hope that's not too confusing!

Do you mean that you would write like you are talking to one person?
When you write something, is it common in your country?
This is very complicated to me because Japanese language is “singular you=anata” and “plural you=anatagata”.
It’s very hard to know which “you” just you said was singular or plural to me.

Thank you!

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Koir

Most of the revisions made were the same as the other two responses. The major revision done was with the sentence fragment about digging clams. I combined the two sentences together as a questioning statement that would make the reader think about doing the action themselves if they hadn't done so in the past.

Hope that is of some help, Yuri!

Hi.
The combined sentence is very clear and easy to understand. Thank you!

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Hi, Columbine.
Thank you!
I have a question.
If I wrote like this, would you think it’s natural?
“Have you ever done this? You dig up the clams with a small rake.”
This is a bit strange to me, because the writer in not sure the reader have dug clams, and the second sentence comes after that. I know that the first “you” means readers, and the second “you” is formal.
However, Japanese (just maybe only me) would think it sounds strange that “I don’t know whether you have done this. You do this.”
What would you write?

Hmm, yes, that is a bit difficult to understand. Koir's revision is certainly better for written work.

My take on it was that as the writing was quite casual, it sounds a lot like you're talking. So I've used a casual talking style here. It's not usual to see this in formal writing, but it's often on things like blogs and websites.
The 'you' in "have you ever done this?" is addressing the reader directly. The 'you' in 'you dig up the clams with a small rake' isn't addressing the reader personally at all. It's a very general use of 'you' that connects with the explanation of how to do the action we're talking about. It almost means 'it's done by...(digging with a small rake)'

It's so common to hear in colloquial British English, that I didn't even think about it when I suggested it. The trouble with 'you' is that we use it constantly, the nuances changes alot. I guess that's pretty difficult for Japanese speakers, because don't use 'あなた’ like that.

For example;
A: "Did you (Singular. directly addressing B) go to the market?"
B: "No, I couldn't find it."
A: "Oh? But it's easy to find. You (abstract. Neither explicitly singular or plural) go up the high-street and it's down the road behind the cafe."
B: "Oh right, I didn't realize you (abstract) had to go behind the cafe. How do you (Singular. directly addressing C) get there? You live on the other side of the market, right?"
C: "I go through the park. You (abstract) can get in by the east gate. You (Singular. addressing A) might find that way more convenient actually.
B: Oh, do you (addressing both C and A) live near each other then?
D: Excuse me, but would you (generally addressing A, B AND C) mind answering a quick survey about your neighborhood?

The 'you' in "You may have noticed that many Japanese tourists appear in your country during this week every year" is plural. But it's more common to use a singular relating to it like 'country' because it makes the reader feel closer to the writing, even if their part of a big group all reading it together.
In essence, it makes that plural 'you' seem slightly singular. It's definitely not the same as the 'you' in 'you dig the clams with a small rake', which is what i've called abstract and in 'feel' is neither really singular or plural. It's a roundabout way of suggesting things to people without actually being as direct as "You should do-" "You have to-" "It's done by-".

Lets go back to the example:
A: "Did you go to the market?"
B: "No, I couldn't find it."
A: "Oh? But it's easy to find. You go up the high-street and it's down the road behind the cafe."

Here A is really saying "You, B, should have walked up the high-street and then walked behind the cafe". But that's a little too direct. A might seem rude if she said that. So instead A is using 'you' abstractly. It's like using 'a person' or 'one' instead of a direct 'you' or B's name. however, it's more casual than 'a person' or 'one'.

Let me know if that still doesn't clear things up for you!

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Hmm, yes, that is a bit difficult to understand. Koir's revision is certainly better for written work.

Hi,Colunbine.
Thanks for your kindness,

I had no idea that it was like that.
I didn’t know you say both “you” (singular and plural) a number of times when you have a talk, and don’t confuse them.
The example is very helpful.

Here A is really saying "You, B, should have walked up the high-street and then walked behind the cafe". But that's a little too direct. A might seem rude if she said that.

I didn’t know that saying “you should have …..” sounds rude.
In Japan, it is said that American people talk very directly, and we should speak directly like them when we speak in English.
In addition, they also say that American people’s genes are very different from Japanese’s, so Americans are Teflon, prefer speaking directly, and direct speaking doesn’t hurt them.
There seems to be some misunderstandings.

So instead A is using 'you' abstractly. It's like using 'a person' or 'one' instead of a direct 'you' or B's name. however, it's more casual than 'a person' or 'one'.

Let me know if that still doesn't clear things up for you!

The word “you” (you call abstract) is regarded formal here. I didn’t know it was casual.
Confusing!

Thank you!

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Hi,Colunbine.
Thanks for your kindness,

I had no idea that it was like that.
I didn’t know you say both “you” (singular and plural) a number of times when you have a talk, and don’t confuse them.
The example is very helpful.

You're quite welcome. Of course, when we're speaking, tone and inflection and body-language help us to tell the difference.

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

I didn’t know that saying “you should have …..” sounds rude.
In Japan, it is said that American people talk very directly, and we should speak directly like them when we speak in English.
In addition, they also say that American people’s genes are very different from Japanese’s, so Americans are Teflon, prefer speaking directly, and direct speaking doesn’t hurt them.
There seems to be some misunderstandings.

I think as a rule, English speakers ~are~ more direct than Japanese speakers, but there are limits. You certainly do hear people say things like "No, you should have done such-and-such" and often it's not thought of as rude per se, but it does come with a nuance of correcting a mistake rather than an explanation. If, for example, I'd screwed up trying to use the cash till at work and my Boss had said something like "No, you should have pressed this button first, then that one," I'd feel a little stupid and answer something like "Ah, i see. Sorry. I'll get it right next time." If he said "No, you press this button first and then this one," i'd answer more like, "Ah, ok, i get it now. Thanks for your help."

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

The word “you” (you call abstract) is regarded formal here. I didn’t know it was casual.
Confusing!
Thank you!

It might be called formal because it doesn't refer to an individual. As i said, it's like using 'one', which is ~very~ formal, but unfortunately, unlike 'one', we use it in casual situations all the time!
English is a silly language.

[Caerula]

I guess, you have to seperate american and british english.
It seems to me, that the british english is generally more formal than the american. Correct me, when I´m wrong :-)
In school, we learned the british "oxford" english. But now, I´m mixing all sorts of english languages LOL I know, there are definitely differences between both, american and british.
@ Columbine: In this context, it would be very interesting to know how big this difference actually is. How is it for you to talk with Americans? I could imagine, that it´s maybe the same thing as if I spoke as German to an Austrian, isn´t it?

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Caerula

I guess, you have to seperate american and british english.
It seems to me, that the british english is generally more formal than the american. Correct me, when I´m wrong :-)
In school, we learned the british "oxford" english. But now, I´m mixing all sorts of english languages LOL I know, there are definitely differences between both, american and british.
@ Columbine: In this context, it would be very interesting to know how big this difference actually is. How is it for you to talk with Americans? I could imagine, that it´s maybe the same thing as if I spoke as German to an Austrian, isn´t it?

I'm not entirely sure, especially as 'British' English and 'American' English both cover a huge range of dialects and convention. My talking to someone from Connecticut would be a whole different scenario to a Newcastle resident talking to a Texan. Oxford English is generally considered one of the most formal, academic accents.

I have a midlands accent; pretty neutral as things go, wavering on a south-west accent at times, which is a bit more distinctly rural. I also tend to speak quite correctly; but there's ~plenty~ of people around here who don't.
Compare; "Hey, you locked me out" with "'ere, you'm locked I out!"
"Me and Mum went shopping today and~" with "Me and my mem, right, we was shopping today~"

Certainly, British English tends to be considered as more 'old-fashioned'. I've been told that using 'whilst' and 'thus' in essays is 'archaic' by American professors, but that's utterly acceptable (even expected) in the UK.

Asides from differences in word-use (faucet vs tap) and difference in meanings ('natty' in the UK means smart and fashionable, 'natty' in America means dirty and unkempt) i didn't notice a great deal of stylistic difference. American's will apologize when expressing sympathy, which British people don't tend to do, and compared to my particular group of British friends, my American friends use a smaller variety of words. I think in some situations American English is actually more formal than British English; some of my American friends have said that they wouldn't call their friends parents by their first names unless explicitly told to. It's all Mrs. X and Mr. Y. I know all my friends parents by their first names.

Generally speaking, unless I say something that is very dialectic/colloquial, there's not much confusion. I tend to have an easier time understanding Americans than they do understanding me, because of course, much more American English media makes it to Britain than British media makes it to the USA.

Bottom line; it really depends on the American. I've met some with truly incomprehensible accents (Minnesota accent, oh dear god...), others sounds aren't so different. To be honest, I found in terms of directness, personality had more to do with it than the language.

[Caerula]

Yeah, I think you´re right. In the end, it truely depends from one´s origin. Same here in Germany - I could´nt understand a bit, if a guy from the South (Bayern (like Munich)/ Baden-Württemberg (like Stuttgart)) would speak to me with his accent.
But thanks a lot for your detailed answer
Oh my, I´ve just recognized the lots of mistakes by reading my written post. Maybe I should take a break with learning japanese and instead refresh my english language competences LOL

Best wishes to GB

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

You're quite welcome. Of course, when we're speaking, tone and inflection and body-language help us to tell the difference.

I think as a rule, English speakers ~are~ more direct than Japanese speakers, but there are limits. You certainly do hear people say things like "No, you should have done such-and-such" and often it's not thought of as rude per se, but it does come with a nuance of correcting a mistake rather than an explanation. If, for example, I'd screwed up trying to use the cash till at work and my Boss had said something like "No, you should have pressed this button first, then that one," I'd feel a little stupid and answer something like "Ah, i see. Sorry. I'll get it right next time." If he said "No, you press this button first and then this one," i'd answer more like, "Ah, ok, i get it now. Thanks for your help."

Hi, Columbine.
Thank you!
“Nuance” is difficult to study because English textbooks scarcely explain about it.
Your explanation is very helpful.

It might be called formal because it doesn't refer to an individual. As i said, it's like using 'one', which is ~very~ formal, but unfortunately, unlike 'one', we use it in casual situations all the time!
English is a silly language.

I see. I didn’t know you say “you” many times.

I'm not entirely sure, especially as 'British' English and 'American' English both cover a huge range of dialects and convention. My talking to someone from Connecticut would be a whole different scenario to a Newcastle resident talking to a Texan. Oxford English is generally considered one of the most formal, academic accents.

Even in small Japan land, even in Japanese language, I sometimes feel difficulties to talk with people who come from south and north parts of Japan.

Compare; "Hey, you locked me out" with "'ere, you'm locked I out!"
"Me and Mum went shopping today and~" with "Me and my mem, right, we was shopping today~"

If you spoke in this way, I would not understand what you said at all.

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Caerula

I guess, you have to seperate american and british english.
It seems to me, that the british english is generally more formal than the american. Correct me, when I´m wrong :-)
In school, we learned the british "oxford" english. But now, I´m mixing all sorts of english languages LOL I know, there are definitely differences between both, american and british.

Guten Tag, Caerula!

Actually, English textbooks in Japan don’t say which English they tell in the books.
I didn’t know British English is more formal that American.
In that case, I think I should study British as you have learned.

By the way, can I ask something about German language here? (I know I should ask only about English here, but I just want to know a little thing.)
I’ve heard that there are two sorts of German languages: the language spoken in your country, and a language tourists learn and speak. They say that the two German languages are different.
If I study German in Japan, is it much different from your language? Would you understand if I say something in German? Have you heard German language spoken by foreign people?

Tschus!