Please help me to read this English sentence:

[Koir]

Eh, yeah. With apologies to ColinHowell and Yuri, I did misread the passage Yuri mentioned and got it wrong. "The abnormal mind" wasn't the speaker referring to himself objectively, but the kind of mindset he sees in others.

Apologies again, I will read closer in the future so I don't confuse as much.

[avicus]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Hi, ColinHowell.

I see.
“The abnormal mind” means people that he considers abnormal in this context, so, the words can means plural, right?

What’s the difference in meaning between those two?
1. Those abnormal minds are quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person.”
2. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person.”

Thanks!

"The abnormal mind" refers to an abnormal way of thinking, in general. It does not refer to a particular person or group of persons. This is because "mind" in this context refers to "way of thinking." Whether this way of thinking is possessed by a certain person/group is immaterial.

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by avicus

Hi YuriTokoro,

日本語が話せますが、まだ上手に成りませんよ。jdic を開いたとわかったばっかりしまいました。でも、「誰 か」と「誰かさん」の意味が違うことはこれに関係ない と思います。　

「誰かさん」is more specific than 「誰か」, in the sense that in the former, it is obvious who is the person being referred to. However, in that passage, 'someone' can also mean 'anyone', because no specific person is being referred to.

こんにちは、avicusさん。

わたしが言いたかったのは、「誰か」と「誰かさん」が 違うように、”the abnormal mind”, “an abnormal mind” and “abnormal minds” にも、違いがあるんじゃないでしょうかと、聞きたかっ たんです。わかりますか？　…　I try to say this in English:
「誰か」and「誰かさん」means different. So I thought “the abnormal mind”, “an abnormal mind” and “abnormal minds” could be different in the same way.

"The abnormal mind" refers to an abnormal way of thinking, in general. It does not refer to a particular person or group of persons. This is because "mind" in this context refers to "way of thinking." Whether this way of thinking is possessed by a certain person/group is immaterial.

Your explanation is very clear and understandable.
Thank you very much!

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

In #1, "Those abnormal minds" simply means "the abnormal minds I've just mentioned".

Sentence #2 makes a sweeping generalization. It states that there is a single class containing all people who the speaker thinks are abnormal, and it goes on to describe that class. That's why "the abnormal mind" is singular and uses "the". It creates an abstract idea and says that every abnormal mind has these qualities.

If this sounds to you like an arrogant way of speaking about people, you're not alone. I don't think English speakers use this sort of expression much nowadays, but it used to be more common in the early 20th century, when The Great Gatsby was written. But it also says something about the narrator's personality; he claims to "reserve judgment", but he then judges an entire class of people with a single statement.

I see.
“The abnormal mind” can means “every abnormal mind”.
This explains why the word is singular.

Then, Fitzgerald’s words are pregnant.
I wish I could understand what novelists suggest in English.
Thanks as always!

[koolk]

Hey,

I found the passage that you are writing about.

The Great Gatsby is a very difficult novel to read. Fitzgerald's sentences are very long and not easy for english readers to understand.

--------------------------------------
In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.

“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”

He didn’t say any more, but we’ve always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores. The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person,
--------------------------------------

1. Anyone vs Someone.

The difference is very very small. Usually the tone of the speaker will determine if there are any differences.

2. "..many curious natures.."

This is a good thing. This does not have to directly refer to people. This could mean interesting places, interesting events, interesting people. Nick refers to the good effects that his behavior has brought him.

3. "..victim of not a few veteran bores. "

This is the bad thing that his behavior has caused. He is a victim of many boring people. The word veteran denotes that these boring people are really good at being boring.

4. The abnormal mind

This is a generalization. Do not confuse this with "Every". He refers to most weird people, not all. The sentence is a generalization. The interesting people and the boring people are both adnormal minds.

5. Every abnormal mind vs The abnormal mind.

The abnormal mind is a generalization. It does not mean every, but most.

i.e. Every Asian is smart vs The Asians are smart.

Asians are smart implies that most asians are smart, not all.
Every Asian is smart says that 100% of all asians are smart.




Hope this helps you understand more about the sentences. Please let me know if you want me to go deeper into any particular sentence. Fitzgerald's writings are very complicated and definitely not spoken language.

Lastly, you refered to his writings as "pregnant". That perfectly describes Fitzgerald's writing style and it's a word that he would use in this fashion. It's rare that we use that word to describe anything though. We reserve that word for "woman with child".

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by koolk

Hey,

I found the passage that you are writing about.

The Great Gatsby is a very difficult novel to read. Fitzgerald's sentences are very long and not easy for english readers to understand.

Hi, Koolk.
I didn’t know that his sentences are not easy to understand even for English readers. I don’t know why, but translated versions of his books are not that difficult.

2. "..many curious natures.."

This is a good thing. This does not have to directly refer to people. This could mean interesting places, interesting events, interesting people. Nick refers to the good effects that his behavior has brought him.

Really!?
“Many curious natures” can refer to interesting people?
Oh! I didn’t notice that.
I have thought that his habit brought only troubles to him.

4. The abnormal mind

This is a generalization. Do not confuse this with "Every". He refers to most weird people, not all. The sentence is a generalization. The interesting people and the boring people are both adnormal minds.

Is that true??
You can say that the interesting people are abnormal minds??
…There is always more to learn.

:5. Every abnormal mind vs The abnormal mind.

The abnormal mind is a generalization. It does not mean every, but most.

i.e. Every Asian is smart vs The Asians are smart.

Asians are smart implies that most asians are smart, not all.

What “The Asians are smart” imply?
The Asians and Asians are the same meaning?

Every Asian is smart says that 100% of all asians are smart.

Can you say “The Asian is smart” meaning “most Asians are smart”?
What the difference in meaning among theose?
1. The Asians are smart.
2. Asians are smart.
3. An Asian is smart.
4. Asian is smart.

Hope this helps you understand more about the sentences. Please let me know if you want me to go deeper into any particular sentence. Fitzgerald's writings are very complicated and definitely not spoken language.

I didn’t know that his writings are not spoken language.
The Great Gatsby is written like Nick is speaking, I mean this story is not what is called “a novel in third person”, so I thought this is very good to study English conversations.

Lastly, you refered to his writings as "pregnant". That perfectly describes Fitzgerald's writing style and it's a word that he would use in this fashion. It's rare that we use that word to describe anything though. We reserve that word for "woman with child".

I didn’t know his style was that difficult to understand.
Do you know any books which is some study of The Great Gatsby?

Thank you!

[Koir]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Can you say “The Asian is smart” meaning “most Asians are smart”?

The sentences don't share exactly the same meaning. "The Asian" is a singular noun which I could see being used in a sentence defining a group of individuals by nationality and differing among them by certain attributes, intelligence being one of them. However, even saying that is stereotyping in a way, which may not sound good to some people.

What the difference in meaning among these?
1. The Asians are smart.

This would be similiar to the above two sentences, except the group being observed and categorized has at least one subgroup sharing the same nationality (Asian).

2. Asians are smart.

This is a more general observation compared to Sentence 1, and encompasses all individuals of Asian nationality. It describes all Asians as sharing the same trait of high intelligence.

3. An Asian is smart.

This sentence is different from both previous sentences as it is only referring to one individual of Asian nationality, and describing that individual's high intelligence level.

4. Asian is smart.

This sentence is too vague to be understood, and needs the revisions found in either Sentence 2 or 3 to gain meaning and definition to an English reader/listener.

Hope that helps, Yuri!

[koolk]

Hey,

Let me explain a few items. There are multiple ways to understand his writings.

The Great Gatsby does use a lot of conversational speech, but this is early 20th century narrative. The language is more formal and long sentences are common from Fitzgerald. The book is excellent and made for students around 14-21 yrs old in advanced english classes. The book does not use difficult words, but it uses a lot of similes and symbolisms. Fitzgerald is not direct when he conveys his message, which is the difficult part.

i.e.
Curious Natures = "interesting things"

The adjective curious is something Nick is eager to learn about. Natures is referring to the wilderness; trees, mountains, rivers. This is a simile. Nick does not literally learn about interesting places. Nick says interesting things open up to him. He learns about interesting things (could reference places, people, secrets, gossip, etc).

I cheated and read the next few lines. The next few sentences give a better meaning of what he meant by curious natures.

-----------------------------------------------------


Abnormal mind

Abnormal just means not normal. He generalizes in this sentence so we assume he means most of the people he has met. The only two groups he talked about are "veteran bores" and "interesting people" so we assume he meant those two groups are abnormal minds.

(Interesting people are not always abnormal minds. They are the same subject in this case because Nick was just talking about them.)

In these few sentences, he called most of the people he met as either
1. Boring
2. Has interesting information
3. Abnormal

-----------------------------------------------------

Asians -

I hope I am not confusing you. The sentences have very similar meanings. The most important word to learn is "Every" and "All". These two words are directly stated. "Most" can be implied. I seperated the sentences so you can see which ones have the same meaning.

-------------------------
Every Asian is smart. (100% of Asians)
All Asians are smart. (100% of Asians)
-------------------------
Most Asians are smart. (50-99% of Asians)
The Asians are smart. (50-99% of Asians)
Asians are smart (50-99% of Asians)
-------------------------
An asian is smart (1 person)

Asian is smart (Not a proper sentence)


Hope this helps you.


----Do you know any books which is some study of The Great Gatsby?----

Did you want books in the early 20th Century? Or books in the same grade level? Or books that explain the story of The Great Gatsby?

[avicus]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

こんにちは、avicusさん。

わたしが言いたかったのは、「誰か」と「誰かさん」が 違うように、”the abnormal mind”, “an abnormal mind” and “abnormal minds” にも、違いがあるんじゃないでしょうかと、聞きたかっ たんです。わかりますか？　…　I try to say this in English:
「誰か」and「誰かさん」means different. So I thought “the abnormal mind”, “an abnormal mind” and “abnormal minds” could be different in the same way.


Your explanation is very clear and understandable.
Thank you very much!

YuriTokoro さん

I see.. No, there is no difference between " 'the abnormal mind', 'an abnormal mind' and 'abnormal minds' " in this case.

若し説明が分りやすかった、よっかたですね。どういた しまして。

However, it is true that F.Scott Fitzgerald is a difficult author to understand, even to native English speakers. This is because of his writing style which uses long sentences with convoluted sentence structure.

If you're looking for other 20th century English novelists who may be slightly easier to understand, I suggest Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck.

[Caerula]

Hello, hello, it´s been a few weeks since my last posting.

@YuriTokoro: I apologize for me not answering your last post, but I´m currently very busy at work. The school year´s ending, so there are lots of exams to prepare, to correct and to grade; also I have to write the school reports for my class. Therefore I´ll not able to be present in the forum for the next weeks.

But I´ll be back as soon as the school vaction begins.

Bye!