Please help me to read this English sentence:

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Ok, in that case, I'd break it down and explain it clearly like you just did. "It's easy to get distracted at a party, but there is always someone who will notice other people's empty glasses and fill them for you."
But then you could add after that, that you should really be paying more attention and not let everyone else take care of your glass-filling duty

My English seems to be really bad…
Filling other people’s glasses is not duty. Pouring each other is a Japanese custom, so if you (from foreign countries) want to behave like Japanese, you should pour other people. In doing so, you need to be careful, or there is almost always someone who pours people before you notice.
Still, nobody accuse you when you don’t pour the people.

Thank you!

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

My English seems to be really bad…
Filling other people’s glasses is not duty. Pouring each other is a Japanese custom, so if you (from foreign countries) want to behave like Japanese, you should pour other people. In doing so, you need to be careful, or there is almost always someone who pours people before you notice.
Still, nobody accuse you when you don’t pour the people.

Thank you!

It's not your english, I think maybe your essay assumed the reader knew something about the custom already, but i really don't know much about it.
"It's easy to get distracted at a party, but there is always someone who will notice other people's empty glasses and fill them for you." should be fine then.

One mistake you do make though, is that you forget to use 'for'.
When you write about doing an action for someone (like 〜てあげる/もらう／くれる）you should put 'for' after the verb.
'pour for people'
'pour for each other'
'cook for you'
'sing for me'
Or even when the receiver and the giver are both you; 'I poured for myself' but we don't say phrases like that too often, especially for actions your normally do by yourself anyway, because it can sound like you did the action to stop your whole life falling apart or something!

EG "Mr. Smith, what an amazing victory in the marathon! What inspires you?"
"Well, it's been a really tough year for me since my business went bankrupt, and running has kept me going, so today I just went out there and ran for myself."

I think maybe it's similar to the difference between 自分自身のために and 自分で。Like, maybe you 自分で朝ご飯を作った、but it would sound weird if someone said 自分自身のために朝ご飯を作った

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

It's not your english, I think maybe your essay assumed the reader knew something about the custom already, but i really don't know much about it.

I’m trying to tell the custom to people who don’t know at all.
You thought my essay assumed the reader knew something already, which means that my English is too poor.

"It's easy to get distracted at a party, but there is always someone who will notice other people's empty glasses and fill them for you." should be fine then.

I’m not sure if you see what I mean.
Especially, I don’t understand why you wrote the last part “for you”. I don’t see what you imagine about a Japanese party.
“For you” sounds like the people fill other people’s glasses for the readers(who is reading this essay).
Usually, all the Japanese people at a party try to pour for other people. So, if you are too out of focus( Is this expression correct here?), you can’t have any chance to pour for anyone.

Or even when the receiver and the giver are both you; 'I poured for myself' but we don't say phrases like that too often, especially for actions your normally do by yourself anyway,

“Especially for actions your normally do by yourself anyway”
I don’t see what you mean.
Young women normally don’t pour by herself here.

“I poured for myself” is odd. OK.
So what can I say?

I think maybe it's similar to the difference between 自分自身のために and 自分で。Like, maybe you 自分で朝ご飯を作った、but it would sound weird if someone said 自分自身のために朝ご飯を作った

I’m so sorry, but I still don’t understand.
What do you say this in English?
『自分で自分のグラスにビールを注ぐ』

Japanese young women can’t 『自分で自分のグラスにビールを注ぐ』.
They have to wait someone notice and pour for her.

Please tell me.
Thanks a lot!!!

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

I’m not sure if you see what I mean.
Especially, I don’t understand why you wrote the last part “for you”. I don’t see what you imagine about a Japanese party.
“For you” sounds like the people fill other people’s glasses for the readers(who is reading this essay).
Usually, all the Japanese people at a party try to pour for other people. So, if you are too out of focus( Is this expression correct here?), you can’t have any chance to pour for anyone.

Ah, right, I understand where we've gone wrong then. The focus of the custom is on ~not pouring for yourself~, rather than pouring for other people. Let's go back to the start; "Someone may start it before you notice the empty glasses." I misinterpreted your explaination, i thought that you have a obligation at a party to pour for other people, but it's not really an obligation at all, right? Because if you're drunk, you can't do it, and if you forget to fill a glass, no-one gets cross.
In England, the only time people pour for others is if they are ~hosting~ the event, and in that case, you shouldn't get distracted, because it can be rude to ignore an empty glass, even if another guest fills it.
So you should say that you ~should~ fill glasses at a party, but it's ok if you can't (or forget), because there will always be someone who notices an empty glass.

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

“Especially for actions your normally do by yourself anyway”
I don’t see what you mean.
Young women normally don’t pour by herself here.

“I poured for myself” is odd. OK.
So what can I say?

ごめんなさい、私の説明はむちゃくちゃになったでしょ うね。 ”One mistake youー”から、私は文法について話していました。英語で 「〜てくれる／あげる／もらう」の事を書くと動詞の前 にいつも’for'を書かなくちゃいけないんです。だかた� �”Young women normally don’t pour by herself ”じゃありません　”Young women normally don't pour for themselves"です。
’I poured for myself'をはなせます、それは大丈夫. でも、'for myself'が英語で二つの意味あるんです。

1) 一人で "by myself"
2)自分の心のために "for the sake of myself"


It then depends on the situation. If i'm at home, it's normal to pour beer for myself, right? But at a party, it's not. Even in the West, that's the host/hostess' job, or else there's a bar-tender or waiter. It's only at very casual parties where you can pour for yourself. So at a party, the act of 'pouring my beer' needs another person. That's why when you say 'I poured for myself' it has the 一人で meaning, because it implies "instead of someone else".

If I run a marathon, or sing a song, then that's an action that doesn't need another person to complete. If I then say "I ran for myself" or "I sang for myself", then I am doing the action for the sake of my own well-being. 自分の心のために. It's much more serious, and means that singing or marathon running is very important to me.

Hope that makes more sense!

[YuriTokoro]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Ah, right, I understand where we've gone wrong then. The focus of the custom is on ~not pouring for yourself~, rather than pouring for other people. Let's go back to the start; "Someone may start it before you notice the empty glasses." I misinterpreted your explaination, i thought that you have a obligation at a party to pour for other people, but it's not really an obligation at all, right?

You are right. It’s not an obligation or a duty.

Because if you're drunk, you can't do it, and if you forget to fill a glass, no-one gets cross.

Exactly!

In England, the only time people pour for others is if they are ~hosting~ the event, and in that case, you shouldn't get distracted, because it can be rude to ignore an empty glass, even if another guest fills it.

I think the definition of the word “party” might be different between us.
Most of our parties have 4 ― 10 people. We call it 飲み会（のみかい）, and there is no host or guests. We just get together and drink. Very casual.
I thought you would call it “a party”, but you seem to think a party has a host and guest, and a host needs to do something.
What would you call 飲み会 in English?

When I host a party in my house, I don’t have any obligation or duty to pour empty glasses.( I just need to ready enough food and drink.) Everybody is supposed to pour for each other.

So you should say that you ~should~ fill glasses at a party, but it's ok if you can't (or forget), because there will always be someone who notices an empty glass.

Yes. But my point was that when young women pour for themselves, they are said they will not be able to marry. I think this may sounds strange to you.

ごめんなさい、私の説明はむちゃくちゃになったでしょ うね。 ”One mistake youー”から、私は文法について話していました。英語で 「〜てくれる／あげる／もらう」の事を書くと動詞の前 にいつも’for'を書かなくちゃいけないんです。だかた� �”Young women normally don’t pour by herself ”じゃありません　”Young women normally don't pour for themselves"です。
’I poured for myself'をはなせます、それは大丈夫. でも、'for myself'が英語で二つの意味あるんです。

1) 一人で "by myself"
2)自分の心のために "for the sake of myself"

Oh, thank you.
I didn’t know “for myself” means both “by myself” and “for the sake of myself”.

It then depends on the situation. If i'm at home, it's normal to pour beer for myself, right?

Right. Even young women when they drink alone.

But at a party, it's not. Even in the West, that's the host/hostess' job, or else there's a bar-tender or waiter. It's only at very casual parties where you can pour for yourself.

I didn’t know that’s the host and hostess’s job.
We rarely have such big parties which have bar-tenders or waiters.
Even at very casual parties, you should try to pour for other people; you can pour for yourself if you are a man, but other people always try to pour for you.

So at a party, the act of 'pouring my beer' needs another person. That's why when you say 'I poured for myself' it has the 一人で meaning, because it implies "instead of someone else".

If I didn’t try to mention about the young women’s taboo, I didn’t say “pour (for ) themselves”.
I don’t think I meant 一人で, but　自分で（じぶんで）.

Telling our culture seems to be very difficult to me.
Thanks for your perseverance!

[Columbine]

[quote=YuriTokoro;821601]

You are right. It’s not an obligation or a duty.

Exactly!

I think the definition of the word “party” might be different between us.
Most of our parties have 4 ― 10 people. We call it 飲み会（のみかい）, and there is no host or guests. We just get together and drink. Very casual.
I thought you would call it “a party”, but you seem to think a party has a host and guest, and a host needs to do something.
What would you call 飲み会 in English?

Right! What makes a 'party' over here can be very different to what makes a 'party' in Japan. In the UK, 飲み会 is very common, but we don't really have a word for it. I still wouldn't call it a 'party'! Nonetheless, at a British のみかいthe drinks are served differently. In Japan, it's put in the middle of the table, right? So you can serve each other. In the UK, you're served as individuals (if there's a waiter/waitress) or you go to the bar and buy individual drinks there. The only time you might serve others is if you buy a bottle of wine, or get a jug of water for the table, then you should offer it first to the people on your left and right before pouring for yourself.

This is probably because we have less late-night public transport, so people like to control their own alcohol consumption and if someone else pours for you, it seems like a waste if you have to leave it. Out of interest, in Japan what do you do if your glass is empty but you don't want any more?

A 'party' is an event with a ~reason~. It's someone's birthday, or anniversary, marriage, post-exam celebration. The main reason I think of a party as having a host and guests is that a lot of parties are held in people's houses.

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

When I host a party in my house, I don’t have any obligation or duty to pour empty glasses.( I just need to ready enough food and drink.) Everybody is supposed to pour for each other.

And here's the difference; the host is definitely supposed to serve the drinks, at least at first. Only at events where the guests bring their own drinks is it normal for people to serve themselves and each other. Even if the food is a buffet or バイキング style service, the host will usually still pour the drinks.
At least in the UK, this probably is an extension of tea-party etiquette, where the hostess always pours.

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

Yes. But my point was that when young women pour for themselves, they are said they will not be able to marry. I think this may sounds strange to you.

It's a little strange, but British etiquette has a lot of odd customs and rules too!

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

I didn’t know that’s the host and hostess’s job.
We rarely have such big parties which have bar-tenders or waiters.
Even at very casual parties, you should try to pour for other people; you can pour for yourself if you are a man, but other people always try to pour for you.

If it's a very big party (50+ people) sometimes you hire someone to serve the drinks! But more often you go to a pub or somewhere similar where it's done for you anyway.

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

If I didn’t try to mention about the young women’s taboo, I didn’t say “pour (for ) themselves”.
I don’t think I meant 一人で, but　自分で（じぶんで).
Telling our culture seems to be very difficult to me.
Thanks for your perseverance!

Ah, OK, it think that was my mistake! 'By myself' in japanese can be 一人で　or 自分で、but you're right, this time it should be 自分で！

8/ cultural differences are really complicated!

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

My English seems to be really bad…
Filling other people’s glasses is not duty. Pouring each other is a Japanese custom, so if you (from foreign countries) want to behave like Japanese, you should pour other people. In doing so, you need to be careful, or there is almost always someone who pours people before you notice.
Still, nobody accuse you when you don’t pour the people.

Thank you!

The clarifications of this obligation caught my attention. I had not thought about whether the emphasis was to pour drinks for the other person, or for a person just not to pour a drink for themselves. I am familiar with the thought that if a woman pours her own drinks she will not marry, but I thought the emphasis was more one of social heirarchy. One would pour drinks for the oldest or most honored people present out of respect, and then for any younger women present.

Or perhaps there's Confuscian confusion going on in my mind, which would also make me wonder if the tradition of women not pouring their own drinks started because men controlled how and when everything was done - at least in public.

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Right! What makes a 'party' over here can be very different to what makes a 'party' in Japan. In the UK, 飲み会 is very common, but we don't really have a word for it. I still wouldn't call it a 'party'! Nonetheless, at a British のみかいthe drinks are served differently. In Japan, it's put in the middle of the table, right? So you can serve each other. In the UK, you're served as individuals (if there's a waiter/waitress) or you go to the bar and buy individual drinks there. The only time you might serve others is if you buy a bottle of wine, or get a jug of water for the table, then you should offer it first to the people on your left and right before pouring for yourself.

I should not have used the word “party” in the post.
I will explain what 飲み会 is to begin with.

This is probably because we have less late-night public transport, so people like to control their own alcohol consumption and if someone else pours for you, it seems like a waste if you have to leave it. Out of interest, in Japan what do you do if your glass is empty but you don't want any more?

We almost always leave many glasses with drink when we finish 飲み会.
It is a waist, but we don’t mind. I think this is our culture. Keeping other people’s glass full is more important than reducing a waste here.

A 'party' is an event with a ~reason~. It's someone's birthday, or anniversary, marriage, post-exam celebration. The main reason I think of a party as having a host and guests is that a lot of parties are held in people's houses.

Rich people hold parties in their houses, but most people don’t here.
We sometimes drink with friends in our house, but I don't think it’s a party.

And here's the difference; the host is definitely supposed to serve the drinks, at least at first. Only at events where the guests bring their own drinks is it normal for people to serve themselves and each other. Even if the food is a buffet or バイキング style service, the host will usually still pour the drinks.
At least in the UK, this probably is an extension of tea-party etiquette, where the hostess always pours.

Wow. You have a lot of parties…

If it's a very big party (50+ people) sometimes you hire someone to serve the drinks! But more often you go to a pub or somewhere similar where it's done for you anyway.

I’ve never held any such big parties. It must be a wedding party here.

Ah, OK, it think that was my mistake! 'By myself' in japanese can be 一人で　or 自分で、but you're right, this time it should be 自分で！

8/ cultural differences are really complicated!

Thanks a lot!

[YuriTokoro]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

The clarifications of this obligation caught my attention. I had not thought about whether the emphasis was to pour drinks for the other person, or for a person just not to pour a drink for themselves. I am familiar with the thought that if a woman pours her own drinks she will not marry, but I thought the emphasis was more one of social heirarchy. One would pour drinks for the oldest or most honored people present out of respect, and then for any younger women present.

Hi, TalnSG.
Do you work in Japan? Or, work with Japanese people?
If you drink with people from your work, social hierarchy must be very important, and you may see people pour for the older or the more honored people.
However, when you go to drink with your friends causally, they don’t mind who is the older or the more honored.

Or perhaps there's confusion going on in my mind, which would also make me wonder if the tradition of women not pouring their own drinks started because men controlled how and when everything was done - at least in public.

A woman can pour for other women.
In addition, if you (a woman) want to be poured, you can pour for someone, and then the person must notice your empty glass and pour for you.
Do you think it’s circuitous?

[Koir]

Originally Posted by YuriTokoro

A woman can pour for other women.
In addition, if you (a woman) want to be poured, you can pour for someone, and then the person must notice your empty glass and pour for you.
Do you think it’s circuitous?

I find it a unique social custom that reinforces the good of a group, or at least another person.