1. Japanese 2. English Yes OR No OR Maybe?

[blimp]

the debate seems to be whether or not japan should have a second official language. in order to have a SECOND official language, one need to have another official language. could someone please tell me if japan has another official language?

pls keep in mind that the de facto official languages are not the same as a real official language.

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by MMM

If learning English only requires knowing 26 letters, then why was I studying English through 12 years of school and then still taking English writing classes all through college?

Because it isn't as easy as you'd like to think.

I see the words "and that's just the writing system" were skipped in my previous post. Check your eye sight.
I never said "learn the 26 letters of the alphabet and you'll know English".

Originally Posted by MMM

That's an interesting story, but I am not sure how it makes learning English easy.

This is how I see the presence of English as the second official language in Japan. English will lose the status of a 'chosen' second language and starting from elementary school everyone will be taught no matter they want it or not. And being an "official" language in going to be used in courts, government meetings, food products, documents (of any kind) and other merchandise will be printed in both languages, all street signs, advertisement sign boards will have both languages in them, same goes for the media foreign movies will dubbed in Japanese with English subs and otherwise.
A Japanese person would find English easier to learn when it's a part the everyday environment in which he was born.

The same "scenario" which you see above was used in USSR.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Surprise surprise. It is already taught from elementary school whether you like it or not. Let me go a bit further - it`s taught even in preschool and kindergarten.

Question No.1. Is it being taught in ALL Japans kindergartens/preschools/elementary schools?
Question No.2. Is the English teaching program the same as in America, or Great Britain?

Originally Posted by Nyororin

An interesting scenario - but tell me, how will it be able to be used in courts, government meetings, etc if those involved in the meetings do not speak it? You`re speaking of a scenario which requires something that is not present. It`s sort of a catch-22. In order to be used in government meetings and in any official context, the officials have to be proficient in the language. In order for the officials and those involved to be truly proficient and to switch over in any short time they would have to be in an environment pushing them (more than present) to learn and use English. In other words, they would have to already be in the environment you are outlining. But in order to make that environment.... See? It goes in a circle.

Don't think if today Japan decides to have English as the second official language, then tomorrow everything going to be like in my "scenario". And I can only speculate how everything might be done when a country chooses to have a second language by itself, not being forced.
I'm guessing the officials won't be touched in the beginning, but after, about 6-8 years when the next generation shows up, they'll simply make an official decree stating that from now on English is going to used in parliament and other government places.
So unless, you're writing a book with a story where a country decides to have another official language don't ask me such questions.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Obviously it will be easier for someone to learn English in that environment. The problem is, first of all, that environment does not exist.

It existed in USSR. Also, go to Belgium or Canada and you'll see that there are some similarities with my "scenario". Here's a wiki page on how bilingualism works in Canada.

Official bilingualism in Canada

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But the biggest problem I think is that you did not say that in your previous message. You said, quite clearly, that English is an easier language than Japanese - citing the alphabet as proof.

I just showed one of the differences between the two languages where English has advantage over Japanese. Though I agree with it being harder then Japanese, my point was that in the environment I told about, it would be easier than Japanese.

Originally Posted by jesselt

English doesn't have just 26 letters as it's been pointed out in every debate of the topic - "A" and "a" look nothing alike, and the typed version of "a" doesn't look like the written version. Then there's cursive.

Right. I'm already imagining how the teacher is saying "Children, today we're gonna learn the first letter of the alphabet and it's letter "A" /eɪ/, and tomorrow we're gonna learn another letter which is... also "a" /eɪ/, but smaller". Even if it does not have just 26 letters... let's say 42 if you like, it's still nothing compared with the Japanese kanji amount.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Aniki

I see the words "and that's just the writing system" were skipped in my previous post. Check your eye sight.
I never said "learn the 26 letters of the alphabet and you'll know English".

My eyesight is fine. Let's keep the discussion civil. Yes learning the alphabet is easier than learning kanji. Learning how to use it properly, however, takes a lifetime.

And I have never heard of a Japanese public school that didn't teach English. They used to start in 7th grade, but now they are starting in elementary school. Even in kindergarten they usually do an non-required English lesson, even if it only a few minutes a day.

Is it taught the same way? No, of course not. The way English is taught to native speakers in native countries is very different to the way it is taught as EFL.

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by MMM

Learning how to use it properly, however, takes a lifetime.

This goes for most languages in the world.

Originally Posted by MMM

And I have never heard of a Japanese public school that didn't teach English. They used to start in 7th grade, but now they are starting in elementary school. Even in kindergarten they usually do an non-required English lesson, even if it only a few minutes a day.

It's nice know that they're a lot of effort in teaching kids English. I hope it stays that way.

Originally Posted by MMM

Is it taught the same way? No, of course not. The way English is taught to native speakers in native countries is very different to the way it is taught as EFL.

In time, it would be taught the same way... IF English was to be made an official language.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Aniki

I see the words "and that's just the writing system" were skipped in my previous post. Check your eye sight.
I never said "learn the 26 letters of the alphabet and you'll know English".

You are comparing the two, pointing out the simplicity of the English alphabet in contrast to the large number of kanji... And then add "and that's just the writing system".
No one skipped what you said. In fact, that quote carries quite a bit of heavy meaning in that context.

The same "scenario" which you see above was used in USSR.

Not quite. The USSR was lumped into a large group with overlapping government. Borders between individual countries were obscured, and it became necessary for individuals to master some level of a shared language.

That necessity simply isn`t present in Japan, and won`t be unless Japan is colonized by some English speaking country.

Question No.1. Is it being taught in ALL Japans kindergartens/preschools/elementary schools?

I can tell you this much - it was impossible for me to find a kindergarten anywhere in this area that didn`t have at least one class a week. Public schools include it in their curriculum so you can answer 100% yes for anything above elementary.

Question No.2. Is the English teaching program the same as in America, or Great Britain?

No, and for obvious reasons.

Don't think if today Japan decides to have English as the second official language, then tomorrow everything going to be like in my "scenario".

I don`t think anything, let alone everything, would be like your scenario.

And I can only speculate how everything might be done when a country chooses to have a second language by itself, not being forced.
I'm guessing the officials won't be touched in the beginning, but after, about 6-8 years when the next generation shows up, they'll simply make an official decree stating that from now on English is going to used in parliament and other government places.

A generation is not 6 to 8 years. In a government setting where most everyone is 60+, it will take a very very long time for enough of them to be proficient enough in English to use it in any official capacity. And in order for a generation to have reached that level... Wait, that will send us right back to the never-ending loop.

So unless, you're writing a book with a story where a country decides to have another official language don't ask me such questions.

You have decided to present this model. The very least you can do is answer to speculation. And if you don`t know the reasons I can make such speculation then there is no point in pulling out my credentials at this point.

It existed in USSR. Also, go to Belgium or Canada and you'll see that there are some similarities with my "scenario". Here's a wiki page on how bilingualism works in Canada.

In the case of the USSR, in the beginning the government was filled with native speakers and teachers in schools were replaced with natives or native level speakers. Media was often available only in Russian...
I find it very hard to see a similar situation arising in Japan. Even if the schools were to switch over to English-only education, there is no shortage of Japanese media.

Canada is a different story completely, starting with the simple fact that there is a native speaking group of French speakers in the country.

そして本番・・・

I just showed one of the differences between the two languages where English has advantage over Japanese. Though I agree with it being harder then Japanese, my point was that in the environment I told about, it would be easier than Japanese.

It would NOT be easier than Japanese. It would not be easier than Japanese in ANY environment. Nor would it be more difficult. This is where you`re really starting to push my limits.
Would it be easier to acquire English proficiency if the language were present in the environment. YES. Would it be easier than Japanese if presented equally in the environment? An outstanding NO.

You are evaluating the difficulty of a language based on how you - a speaker - perceive it. This is so incredibly skewed that I cannot even begin to explain it. Of course you find English easier than Japanese - you can speak it! And it`s not a wild guess to assume that you were exposed to it (and possibly as a single language) on a regular basis in your environment.

For a language to be easier than another language, it has to be limiting in it`s expressive capabilities. You may not realize it, but in saying English is an easier language than Japanese - you are saying that English is a lesser language than Japanese. I somehow doubt that you are intending to do so.

Right. I'm already imagining how the teacher is saying "Children, today we're gonna learn the first letter of the alphabet and it's letter "A" /eɪ/, and tomorrow we're gonna learn another letter which is... also "a" /eɪ/, but smaller". Even if it does not have just 26 letters... let's say 42 if you like, it's still nothing compared with the Japanese kanji amount.

Or... 52, perhaps?
Either way, that isn`t the issue. The number of words, and the skill required to properly use the two languages does not differ. You are using your perception, as a speaker of English, to rate another writing system badly simply because YOU find it too hard.

馬鹿な事この上なし

[Kayci]

Originally Posted by Aniki

This goes for most languages in the world.



It's nice know that they're a lot of effort in teaching kids English. I hope it stays that way.




In time, it would be taught the same way... IF English was to be made an official language.

Um...not really.

I didn't think India teaches it the same way.
And it's an official language there.


Maybe in Nigeria
The Philippines may have a different approach, etc etc.

There are many countries with english as a second official language that won't teach it the way United States would.

And really, Japan does everything else, teaching from young age through college. But you can only lead a horse to water, let them keep just being officially monolingual. It's not hurting us or them as much as they say, because it's just a choice.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Aniki

In time, it would be taught the same way... IF English was to be made an official language.

As long as Japanese remains the main language of Japan it will never be taught the same as it is in countries where English is the native language.

If you have ever studied Japanese or any other language that is significantly and fundamentally different from English you will understand that native speakers make assumptions that cover ALL languages that are challenged. It is a paradigm shift that many learners never clear.

One of these is when you see people say "Why does Japan still use kanji? It's so stupid when katakana and hiragana is enough!" Hardly a student hasn't thought it when faced with the seemingly impossible volume of kanji that faces them. I remember when I studied French and Spanish and being completely perplexed by the idea that all nouns have a gender. Native speakers don't have these issues because it isn't a paradigm shift. That's all they know.

[Kayci]

Originally Posted by MMM

As long as Japanese remains the main language of Japan it will never be taught the same as it is in countries where English is the native language.

If you have ever studied Japanese or any other language that is significantly and fundamentally different from English you will understand that native speakers make assumptions that cover ALL languages that are challenged. It is a paradigm shift that many learners never clear.

One of these is when you see people say "Why does Japan still use kanji? It's so stupid when katakana and hiragana is enough!" Hardly a student hasn't thought it when faced with the seemingly impossible volume of kanji that faces them. I remember when I studied French and Spanish and being completely perplexed by the idea that all nouns have a gender. Native speakers don't have these issues because it isn't a paradigm shift. That's all they know.

You know, I make the mistake of complaining about the kanji a lot. I understand they need it, and that's their way of the written language...
but i complain of wondering why they went with it in the first place...>.>

[Payne222]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Or... 52, perhaps?
Either way, that isn`t the issue. The number of words, and the skill required to properly use the two languages does not differ. You are using your perception, as a speaker of English, to rate another writing system badly simply because YOU find it too hard.

I dunno, I mean, from my standpoint (I am not trying to offend anyone
in anyway) I can see where saying Japanese is harder than some European languages.
My experience with this is that I was learning both Japanese and German at
the same time. Japanese was harder than German because of all the different
kana and kanji to memorize writing wise compared to German's 30 letters. Also
the way sentences are constructed in Japanese was harder for me. But this
is my own opinion and insight on it.
Oh, and most Europeans I know that are native in another language (ie German
or Hungarian) say that English is easier to learn than other languages.

[Payne222]

Originally Posted by MMM

I remember when I studied French and Spanish and being completely perplexed by the idea that all nouns have a gender. Native speakers don't have these issues because it isn't a paradigm shift. That's all they know.

That exact same thing happened with me and German!