1. Japanese 2. English Yes OR No OR Maybe?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Aniki

MMM, I'm not the one who should be reminding you that Japanese requires to learn 1,900 kanji + hiragana and katakana, while the English alphabet only 26 letters and that's just the writing system. You still think that to the Japanese people Japanese language would be easier to learn then English?

If learning English only requires knowing 26 letters, then why was I studying English through 12 years of school and then still taking English writing classes all through college?

Because it isn't as easy as you'd like to think.

Originally Posted by Aniki

And just because you haven't heard a Japanese person say that "English is so easy to learn", it doesn't tell anything. Japanese is almost hard for every Westerner (only Finnish would find Japanese easy because both languages have similar sentence structure), but it depends on persons will and effort. For one person Japanese might be hard to learn, for another it might be easy. Same goes for any language, no matter who's learning it and the way of thinking doesn't play a huge part in it.

OK, I'll be more specific. I have never heard a Japanese person say "English is so easy." I have, on the other hand, heard thousands say "English is too hard". Just look at the Looking for English Help section hre.

Originally Posted by Aniki

I’ll give you the short story. After the establishing of the USSR Russian language became an “official” language in all of the Soviet Union and was thought in schools, used in media, etc. And while it was an official language of the Soviet Union in all but formal name, all national languages were proclaimed equal.
In that period a lot of Russian loan words were acquired by other languages because of every day use, causing harm to them and after the fall of USSR when all countries got their independence the whole damage became seen. Some countries are still having problems with eliminating the damage, and the problems mostly consists in people who got used to it in time, and don’t understand what’s the problem with using Russian words with their native language.
Now, I'm NOT saying that the same thing is going to happen with Japan if English is going to be made and official language. I'm only trying to prove that if a foreign language "officially" steps into a country, in time, it will cause a lot damage to the native language.

That's an interesting story, but I am not sure how it makes learning English easy.

Originally Posted by Aniki

True, I'm not going to argue with that. Maybe I was overreacting about this, but I didn't make my assumptions from out of nowhere. Recently there was a show about the Japanese who are living here and they told that with each generation of Japanese young people show less interest to traditions and that is slowly becoming a problem in Japan. I've also read somewhere about it on the net.

Since Jesus walked the Earth younger people have been less interested in the traditional ways than the older generation. That's cultural evolution, and is perfectly normal.

Originally Posted by Aniki

This is how I see the presence of English as the second official language in Japan. English will lose the status of a 'chosen' second language and starting from elementary school everyone will be taught no matter they want it or not. And being an "official" language in going to be used in courts, government meetings, food products, documents (of any kind) and other merchandise will be printed in both languages, all street signs, advertisement sign boards will have both languages in them, same goes for the media foreign movies will dubbed in Japanese with English subs and otherwise.
Now imagine a kid being born 10 years after "in such Japan", and think how hard will English be for him to learn when it's so evident in everyday life?

I guess I am not seeing where the benefits outweigh the hassle and expenses it would be to enact this.

[jesselt]

I just wanted to clear some things up... I don't see any reason as to why Japan would need to use English as a second language. Something like 99% of the population is Japanese so that seems a little pointless. I don't think that making English an official language would equal the demise of the Japanese language; that's pretty stupid. Japanese people seem to enjoy their native language and actively incorporate more and more Kanji into their writing system while getting rid of others, a sign that the language is thriving.

Originally Posted by Aniki

MMM, I'm not the one who should be reminding you that Japanese requires to learn 1,900 kanji + hiragana and katakana, while the English alphabet only 26 letters and that's just the writing system. You still think that to the Japanese people Japanese language would be easier to learn then English?

English doesn't have just 26 letters as it's been pointed out in every debate of the topic - "A" and "a" look nothing alike, and the typed version of "a" doesn't look like the written version. Then there's cursive.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

It is pure and total arrogance to toss up some trait of a language you do know as a reason it is "easier". But if you want to play on that sort of field - Japanese children are generally able to learn to read at a very early age. Why? Because hiragana/katakana are ALWAYS pronounced in the same way. There is no need for worries about "spelling", silent letters, dropped consonants, blended sounds, etc etc etc that are oh so very common in English. If I follow your logic, that would make Japanese much easier to learn.

I agree with this for native speakers, but it is important to note that this isn't necessarily true for foreigners. There's things like は which sounds like わwhen used as a particle, and things like elongated vowels and small tsu sounds that can be very tricky for learners (としょうかん or としょかん, etc.)
English spelling is, of course, much more difficult though; I just want to point out that Japanese isn't exactly as simple spelling-wise as it's made out to be.

Originally Posted by noodle

Nyoronin and MMM, thank you for explaining that English isn't an "easier" language. I thought I would do it, but I felt that it would be better if it was explained by someone who actually speaks both languages.

I think the biggest problem is that westerners can't get around the idea of the number of Kanji you have to learn and the ever so famous "you should studying Japanese seriously for about 4 years to be able to read a newspaper". This sentence is ever so annoying because I never see a 9 year old native English speaker (who has been studying English for 4 years or more) read The Times for example, or any serious newspaper for that matter.

To be fair, the general rule for local (American) newspapers is that they should be written so that 5th graders can read them. Things like the New York Times are intended for adult readers, but still use pretty simple language so that anyone could read them. My understanding of Japanese newspapers is that they are much more difficult on the local level than English newspapers. I might be wrong, but I think it would be much more difficult for the average Japanese 5th grader to read a newspaper than the Average American 5th grader, specifically because of Kanji.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by jesselt

To be fair, the general rule for local (American) newspapers is that they should be written so that 5th graders can read them. Things like the New York Times are intended for adult readers, but still use pretty simple language so that anyone could read them. My understanding of Japanese newspapers is that they are much more difficult on the local level than English newspapers. I might be wrong, but I think it would be much more difficult for the average Japanese 5th grader to read a newspaper than the Average American 5th grader, specifically because of Kanji.

This may be true of 5th graders, but I don't think it would necessarily be true of 12th graders.

It's easy to quantify the sheer volume of kanji that needs to be learned, but it is difficult to quantify to volume of rules and exceptions that must be perfected to comprehend English. The fact that it is difficult to quantify the volume of exceptions in grammar and spelling that must be learned is testimony to English's difficulty.

A 5th grader can function in society without being able to read a newspaper. That's not nearly as true when one is 18 years old.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Aniki

Obviously speaking to you would be the same as talking to a wall, since you have NO idea what it means to have a second official language in a monocultural country.

I have to say that is the first time I have ever had that phrase applied to me. And quite honestly, I`m quite taken aback by it.

This is how I see the presence of English as the second official language in Japan. English will lose the status of a 'chosen' second language and starting from elementary school everyone will be taught no matter they want it or not.

Surprise surprise. It is already taught from elementary school whether you like it or not. Let me go a bit further - it`s taught even in preschool and kindergarten.

And being an "official" language in going to be used in courts, government meetings, food products, documents (of any kind) and other merchandise will be printed in both languages, all street signs, advertisement sign boards will have both languages in them, same goes for the media foreign movies will dubbed in Japanese with English subs and otherwise.

An interesting scenario - but tell me, how will it be able to be used in courts, government meetings, etc if those involved in the meetings do not speak it? You`re speaking of a scenario which requires something that is not present. It`s sort of a catch-22. In order to be used in government meetings and in any official context, the officials have to be proficient in the language. In order for the officials and those involved to be truly proficient and to switch over in any short time they would have to be in an environment pushing them (more than present) to learn and use English. In other words, they would have to already be in the environment you are outlining. But in order to make that environment.... See? It goes in a circle.

Japan is not about to be colonized by an English speaking country, nor is it about to have a government instated by one.

Now imagine a kid being born 10 years after "in such Japan", and think how hard will English be for him to learn when it's so evident in everyday life?

Obviously it will be easier for someone to learn English in that environment. The problem is, first of all, that environment does not exist.

But the biggest problem I think is that you did not say that in your previous message. You said, quite clearly, that English is an easier language than Japanese - citing the alphabet as proof.
それ、逆鱗に触れる発言で食い下がるに決まってる。許 せない。自分の言ってる事の意味を分からずに突っかか っても痛くも痒くもない。何言われたって譲れないよ。
君、何様のつもりでいるのかわからん。だが、私言語学 者なんだからな・・・

I don`t think English should be a second language in Japan in any official context. It seems that we agree on that point. However, "losing Japanese heritage" isn`t my concern. It just makes absolutely no sense to do so.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I agree with this for native speakers, but it is important to note that this isn't necessarily true for foreigners. There's things like は which sounds like わwhen used as a particle, and things like elongated vowels and small tsu sounds that can be very tricky for learners (としょうかん or としょかん, etc.)
English spelling is, of course, much more difficult though; I just want to point out that Japanese isn't exactly as simple spelling-wise as it's made out to be.

I don`t recall saying that Japanese is at all easier to learn than English. What I did say, however, is that English is not easier than Japanese. If one were to follow the thinking of the quote which I was replying to - Japanese would end up being "easier". Is it? Of course not, which disproves the original quote.

The original bit I was replying to is about "native" speakers learning the language as children. (I put native in quotes, as they can hardly be considered such at the point where they are still acquiring language.) It would NOT be easier to learn English as a native language. Nor would it be more difficult.

[komitsuki]

I voted NO.

English in Japan has no historical nor political reasons to become a secondary official language.

I should address some important issue about English:

Though the sudden dominance of English in the world's academic domain is why universities in non-English speaking countries losing significant ground. For several decades and still today, universities in first world English speaking countries have total dominance in the academia, quasi-permanently. It has discouraged universities in Japan, Russia, etc. to even become important in the long run.

There is a huge presense of heavily-biased oligarchy in globally-connected academia because of English. Hence, the so-called English-superior movement has regressed the whole essense of academia worldwide.

[jesselt]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I don`t recall saying that Japanese is at all easier to learn than English. What I did say, however, is that English is not easier than Japanese. If one were to follow the thinking of the quote which I was replying to - Japanese would end up being "easier". Is it? Of course not, which disproves the original quote.

The original bit I was replying to is about "native" speakers learning the language as children. (I put native in quotes, as they can hardly be considered such at the point where they are still acquiring language.) It would NOT be easier to learn English as a native language. Nor would it be more difficult.

I never said that you were saying that Japanese was easier >_>

I was just point out that "Because hiragana/katakana are ALWAYS pronounced in the same way. There is no need for worries about "spelling", silent letters, dropped consonants, blended sounds, etc etc etc that are oh so very common in English" isn't exactly true seeing as Hiragana isn't always pronounced the same way and there is a form of silent letters. Both languages are difficult in their own ways, but I was just showing that English doesn't have "just 26 letters" and Japanese isn't always spelling error free.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I never said that you were saying that Japanese was easier >_>

I was just point out that "Because hiragana/katakana are ALWAYS pronounced in the same way. There is no need for worries about "spelling", silent letters, dropped consonants, blended sounds, etc etc etc that are oh so very common in English" isn't exactly true seeing as Hiragana isn't always pronounced the same way and there is a form of silent letters. Both languages are difficult in their own ways, but I was just showing that English doesn't have "just 26 letters" and Japanese isn't always spelling error free.

A native child, growing up around Japanese, is usually able to hear those "silent" letters. は is an exception, but it is much much easier to remember one or two exceptions that a whole sea full of them. おお versus おう is the biggest one that catches kids (こおる vs こうる, etc), but it isn`t exactly an exception.

You`re speaking of the problems for non-native learners. I am talking about native acquisition.

Either way though - "spelling" mistakes have little to do with reading proficiency. I am sure that you are able to read much more than you can spell with confidence. And as in 99.99 percent of the time hiragana/katakana is indeed read with the same sound, it is not a stretch to say that it`s always read in the same way. Even with the very very few exceptions, you would still be able to understand what was being read *if* you were a native speaker.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I was just point out that "Because hiragana/katakana are ALWAYS pronounced in the same way. There is no need for worries about "spelling", silent letters, dropped consonants, blended sounds, etc etc etc

You can thank the Japanese government post WWII for that because before that, you needed ruby text even on hiragana because there were a LOT of exceptions. Try reading the sentence below using modern Kana readings and it turns into another language and pretty much all books before WWII were written like this.

「非現實的」と言つて非難する人が結構たくさんゐるや うなのですが、理想を追求する事に何の問題があると云 ふのでせうか。

[MMM]

As someone who participates in both Japanese and English speaking forums, the lack of communication skills by native English speakers is much more glaringly obvious. There is not the "I'm just lazee" factor in Japanese that is a barrier to communication.

Of course, Japanese has short-cuts, slang, etc. But for these are more...how can I say?...organized than the "I am YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!" type chimpanzee-with-a-keyboard posts we see even here on JF.