History ~ December 1941 : Hong Kong Falls To Japan

[dogsbody70]

Oh yes many profit from making war. Our world would be overcrowded if not for wars and plagues but should it be that way.

human beings are dispensable whilst the war makers rub their hands in glee.

[Ryzorian]

It's not revisionist history. I am fully aware that Japan was at war, so was the US under FDR, That's why they implaced the embargo. It's also what forced Japan's hand, they couldn't maintain the wars they were fighting without replaceing fuel and supplies. Things the embargo denied them access to.

Dogsbody70; I personally think man can slip into such carnage so easily because he's evil at heart. I understand we have knowledge of both good and evil, but evil is like water, it allways seeks the easiest route.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

What turns a previously decent human being into a killing machine, willing to sacrifice their own lives for the CAUSE- So many are mere pawns, willing to die for the Emperor.- I guess its within each of us to do this if something triggers it-- fanaticism--Mass Brain washing--

As for the rape of NANKING? I shudder when I learn of all the cruelty there and other places. Human beings lives just so insignificant. The killing Lust that must overtake those out to conquer other countries.

Such things can occur after years of propaganda, racial villification and nationalistic fervor. Hitler of course did something similar in Germany. Basically once you control all the media, the education system and curb any political opposition you can change the way people think. This occurred in Japan as in Germany. Nationalistic pride makes you believe you are better than other peoples and countries, superior to them. Villify them enough and the people will start to barely consider other peoples/races as any better than animals and themselves as some sort of elite race.

Of course not all the population will think this way but if you lock up and execute enough dissenters and outlaw any political parties opposed to the new world view you are fostering, which is what happened in Japan, then soon those who don't agree with what's happening learn to keep their mouths shut.

[dogsbody70]

GO NATIVE you are right there. Certainly Hitler brainwashed his countrymen and children till they were like robots. From what I have read Japan was run by the military-----------

I wonder now with the internet if it will be so easy to hide or breed false information about other countries.

Although false rumours can be spread so easily.

POWER corrupts.

[fluffy0000]

Conspiracy theorist frequently claim FDR instituted the oil embargo against Japan in order to provoke war. The fact of the matter is that the Republicans in Congress demanded that embargo.

When The Export Control Act of July 2, 1940 was signed and authorized by FDR, it was basically in the interest of our own national defense, to prohibit or curtail the export of basic war materials to (all) aggressor nations. Under that act, licenses were refused for the export to Japan and Germany of aviation gasoline (not crude oil) and most types of machine tools, to be implemented one month later, in August 1940.

America started limited embargoes on limited items as Japanese aggression increased on the Asian mainland. It started with refined aviation gasoline (Aug.,1940), when that didn't get their attention it was upped to exclude scrap steel and iron (Oct., 1940), when that still had no effect their assets were frozen in the US, but they could still purchase crude oil and take it home for refining.

It wasn't until all of those economic measures, sanctions, and warning had no effect was a total embargo on crude oil imposed on July 26th of ’41, a full year after the first embargoes were imposed. Those ships in harbor, bound for Japan which were loading with crude were allowed to complete the loading and left for Japan. It wasn't like America "dropped this embargo" on the Japanese out of the blue

The Neutrality Act of 1939 (November 4) retained the "cash and carry" formula devised by Bernard Baruch for the 1937 Act. This meant that belligerents were permitted to buy American goods including arms and strategic materials, but they had to pay cash (gold transfer) and to transport the goods in their own hulls, or at least in ships flying their flags.

[Ryzorian]

Ironically back when the US was founded it was "free trade with everyone, treaties with no one". We weren't supposed to get involved in world affairs, just give equipment and goods to who ever wanted them. Some think we should go back to being like that, let the world rot while we make money and do our own thing. I can't say thats wrong headed really, considering the US is basically a continant it could certainly be self sufficient, and it's not like any one really poses much of a threat.

[fluffy0000]

what does that have to do with your fantasy about FDR and Pearl Harbor, dude?

[Ryzorian]

The US embargoed Japan, creating the situation that occured. Thus allowing the chance to declare war on Germany that FDR hoped for. Wether it was a strange confluence of events or artful manipulation is beside the point, because of those events the US got involved in a major way.

Now I happen to think FDR, who was in contact with Churchill since the war started in europe, helped the scenario along via political manouvering, your free to disagree with that, that's fine. It's not the end of the world either way.

[fluffy0000]

you got it wrong again dude? Germany declared war on the United States not the other way around ( Dec. 11, 1941').
Germany was not obligated to declare war after Dec. 7, 1941' with Japan because Pearl Harbor attack was pre-emptive attack by Japan on the US.

Not even under the Sept. 27, 1940 Triparte Pact that established the Axis powers Germany and Japan, Italy was Germany obligated to enter into war with US.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by fluffy0000

you got it wrong again dude? Germany declared war on the United States not the other way around ( Dec. 11, 1941').
Germany was not obligated to declare war after Dec. 7, 1941' with Japan because Pearl Harbor attack was pre-emptive attack by Japan on the US.

Not even under the Sept. 27, 1940 Triparte Pact that established the Axis powers Germany and Japan, Italy was Germany obligated to enter into war with US.

Correct, other than forming the alliance with those opposing the Axis powers, the only country the U.S. declared war on was Japan. Japan, Manchuko, Germany, Italy, and the Japanese govt in Nanking all declared war on the U.S. between Dec 7 and Jan 9.

As for the claim that Hilter was in on the original planning of the attack on Pearl Harbor, while it would fit his mindset, the Luftwaffe did not have the strategic positioning for this to have been even remotely possible at that time. For Hirohito to have even considered the Germans to be more than mere political support is inconceivable. Only Japan had the fleet in the Pacific to bring aircraft close enough for such an attack and they had no need of Hilter in their simultaneous attacks on Pearl Harbor and the rest of SE Asia (Guam, Phillipines, Midway).