Women in Japan

[Amnell]

Mah, no worries ^_^ . But you're right--we're starting to derail the thread :P , so enough of that

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by noodle

Actually kunitokotachi, ivi0nk3y is right... I've read at least 3 articles on the decline of the Japanese population due to all the factors he stated... And no, they are not .com articles, nor are they not backed with research!

I think the point that you should get from what he's saying is that, we being humans have a sort of obligation to have children and raise a family! Thinking that you shouldn't do that is just selfish. Imagine that if everyone said, oh, well someone else can have children. That will only lead to disaster and the extinction of the human race. If anyone disagrees with that, then I really don’t' have a clue to why it is you are alive...

And again, about the women bringing up children, it is also PROVEN (not that it was ever needed) that women/mothers are naturally better at raising a child. And coming back with something like, anyone of the parents could be a crappy parent is just not the point. There are exceptions to every rule! But, if you come back and prove me that this applies to a percentage higher than 1% then I’ll consider it a possibility!

Yes, you’re right. Women have achieved some great things, and no one is telling them not to! But what does that have to do with anything? Personally I think the fact that a woman raises a child to be a good person is the biggest achievement of all! The fact that a women can give birth is another achievement that we men should be envious of!
So stating everything that women have achieved or men have achieved is nothing compared to the two above!


One other thing. I’ve always wanted to ask this to “Girl Power” extremists like yourself and many of the people here. Why do you think it is that throughout the history of mankind, men and women had their places? Why didn’t men stay at home when the baby was born? AND, why do you believe so strongly that something natural (and normal) is so wrong? I don’t think people like you realise that, apart from the modernized countries, many women still take up the role of being mothers even with an education and a job with a great career. They take a couple of years from their careers to pursue a career that is more fulfilling than any other. I think you guys need to just sit down and think, why has it been like this for millennia’s and why do I feel the urge to suddenly drastically change everything!

You think women who won't have children are being "selfish"?

No offense... but I'd call a woman's decision, whatever it was as "none of your business". Do what feels right for you. I find it ironic that you complain about certain women shunning motherhood, when all you're doing is dismissing the alternative.

Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that.

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You think women who won't have children are being "selfish"?

No offense... but I'd call a woman's decision, whatever it was as "none of your business". Do what feels right for you. I find it ironic that you complain about certain women shunning motherhood, when all you're doing is dismissing the alternative.

Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that.

First, I'll say this: You can't fight biology.

Now before you get fired up, listen well.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with women going out and getting jobs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman's decision to not have children (though due to bio-chemistry, she'll probably want one sooner or later). I wouldn't say that such a decision is 'selfish', though I could make a case for it being 'unnatural'.

The fact remains that biologically, women are MEANT to have children and nurture them--why else would they be endowed by god or selection to have a womb and breasts? So, biologically, gender roles will ALWAYS exist. You can't change that. It will always be the woman's role to birth and nurture children.

Whether she fulfills that role or not is up to her.

Personally, if I were a woman, I wouldn't fulfill that role. I don't have enough patience to raise kids... or sanity. Believe me, making that decision would be for the benefit of mankind XD .

In Japan, it seems that many women are deciding to not have children and instead pursue a career-driven life. Okay, that's fine! The birthrate now may be down, but remember that a lot of women are compelled to have children at some time in their life--biochemistry, like I said. So most of the ones that are refusing to have kids now will probably have at least one later on, so I don't see what all the fuss is about it.

And just a little interjection.... I really hate how the feminist movement in the Western countries has totally trashed the male identity. Role, fine. Identity, not fine. It's gone so far that a lot of men today don't know how to actually be a man.

Damn, someone is going to challenge me to say what a man should be.... Shit, if you don't know, there's no way I can explain it to you. I can't bring in biology too much, because everyone always says it's irrelevant or they get pissed off. And I can't bring in religion because I apparently do that too much (*winks at noodle*), and that gets totally subjective anyway.

How about this: A man should be everything that a woman is not. There. Simple. I hope.

Oh, and Vice-Versa (A woman should be everything that a man is not).

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You think women who won't have children are being "selfish"?

No offense... but I'd call a woman's decision, whatever it was as "none of your business". Do what feels right for you. I find it ironic that you complain about certain women shunning motherhood, when all you're doing is dismissing the alternative.

Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that.

You missed my point. You read the first line and ignored the rest!
But as you went off, I’ll reply to that. Hell yeah it’s selfish if every woman says they don't want kids just because hey, someone else will have kids! I never said it was selfish if she had her reasons! If she is not stable mentally or financially, that’s the last thing she should ever do. If she knows and feels like she'll be a horrible parent, then by all means, stay away from kids, if she thinks the child won’t be brought up in a loving environment, then don’t have kids. BUT, if she doesn't want to have kids because she thinks that she can't pursue a career and that money is the most important thing in her life, or that she has the attitude of, “why the hell should I do it? It’s so unfair that us women have to give birth and men do nothing” then, not meaning to sound rude, but she can f*** off! IN my opinion!

And what is exactly the other alternative? I don't know what you meant by that!

And necessary for society at the time of function? What are you saying, it’s not necessary anymore? Are you telling me that women don’t need to give birth anymore and that it’s ok for the human race to just die out because we don’t need to give birth anymore?? Dude, what are you talking about? Having children is a necessity and will always be.

You know, I found a funny article the other day. Some research was done on the US, France, UK, and Canada! They found that many people were not “very” happy with the fact that there seemed to be so many immigrants in their countries! The article suggested that because many of the people in these countries have a “modern” mindset, they don’t wish to have a lot of children and they choose other things in their life, it appeared that there were more foreigners, but it was actually that there were less of them being born! The article finished with a funny line. It was something like, “If we all followed the mindset of the average western workaholic, then in no more than one century the worlds populations will be less than 50million and we could face extinction soon thereafter!”

[SSJup81]

I still don't see why some people have a problem or find it "unnatural" that some women just don't want to have children and it's unfair to expect them all to. It's not like back in the old days where they didn't have much say in the matter, and was forced into marriage and into having children, etc., but now-a-days, women are either waiting until they've established a career, or just not having them because they feel they wouldn't make good mothers. There are some women who shouldn't have children, but they have them anyway. If you already know and realize that you're not into the whole parenting thing, then you shouldn't have children.

There are some women who just don't want to biologically go through physically having a child. I'm personally one of them. I'd rather adopt a child, or two, in need, than to have one of my own.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

but now-a-days, women are either waiting until they've established a career, or just not having them because they feel they wouldn't make good mothers. There are some women who shouldn't have children, but they have them anyway. If you already know and realize that you're not into the whole parenting thing, then you shouldn't have children.

There are some women who just don't want to biologically go through physically having a child. I'm personally one of them. I'd rather adopt a child, or two, in need, than to have one of my own.

I totally agree with this and i didn't say otherwise!... Its perfectly ok for a woman to establish a career then have a child...
Its not ok for a woman to have a child if she knows she'll do a bad job.

And also, adopting is another great choice and i admire all families that do it! If you really don't wanna go through the pain, but want to help a child, this is great.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by noodle

BUT, if she doesn't want to have kids because she thinks that she can't pursue a career and that money is the most important thing in her life, or that she has the attitude of, “why the hell should I do it? It’s so unfair that us women have to give birth and men do nothing” then, not meaning to sound rude, but she can f*** off! IN my opinion!

Well your opinion is stupid... in my opinion. In MY opinion a woman can decide whether or not she wants to become a mother for whatever reason she wants. Again... it's none of your (or my) business.

Also...I was speaking of gender roles in general rather motherhood specifically when I said-

"Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that."

It seemed you wanted to justify gender roles because they'd "lasted for millenia". I was simply saying that's not a valid justification. I can't see the role of mother ever changing unless artificial birthing becomes practical and convenient.

The reason I said it is because you seemed to have some sort of 19th century attitude towards the role of women in society in that you believe that the most important way a woman can contribute to society is to become a mother.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well your opinion is stupid... in my opinion. In MY opinion a woman can decide whether or not she wants to become a mother for whatever reason she wants. Again... it's none of your (or my) business.

Also...I was speaking of gender roles in general rather motherhood specifically when I said-

"Gender roles existed for millenia because they were necessary for society at the time to function. The need to conform to many of them has gradually become obsolete. Simple as that."

It seemed you wanted to justify gender roles because they'd "lasted for millenia". I was simply saying that's not a valid justification. I can't see the role of mother ever changing unless artificial birthing becomes practical and convenient.

The reason I said it is because you seemed to have some sort of 19th century attitude towards the role of women in society in that you believe that the most important way a woman can contribute to society is to become a mother.

Wow, what is it with people TOTALLY misunderstanding my posts? I think i need to go back to school and relearn english!

Tbh, I can't be bothered to rewrite everything, so if you (want), could you kindly read what i've written again!

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by kunitokotachi

Dammit, you're infinite ignorance amazes me. I tried to be nice but then you come up on here and spew gonorrhea from your mouth. First of all I never attacked you even with your idiotic statements about women. Also, who goes off on tangents? Do you know what that word means? I digressed? The person who started this thread compared anime females to actual Japanese females and here is a comment you made:

lol UMAD?
Firstly, I stated said that comment in reply to someone else saying something about the raising of children. That has nothing to do with digressing, it was a reply to their statement.

Originally Posted by kunitokotachi

Now genius, you tell me who digressed. In addition, you made an uneducated statement based on what? If you can't put up legitimate peer-reviewed studies then silence is the best course of action for you. I posted womens' accomplishments... your point is? Hopefully it helped your misguided ass understand that parenting skills and accomplishments have nothing to do with gender.

Lets see, we need peer-reviewed STUDIES to see whats in front of us these days. How ENLIGHTENED of you. Omg, you are just too much. Telling me to silence because I didn't do a study and dismissing my claim? Wow you're such a professional kiddo ;o What would the world do without your oh-so-moral ethical righteousness!

Women aren't better suited to raising kids? Seriously, have you done a peer reviewed study to find out how kids without BOTH parents turn out? My point was valid because NATURALLY a MOTHER in NATURE brings up her offspring and instills a lot of positive qualities that are not instilled by the FATHER. If you deny this, then you are the most short sighted pseudo scientist i've ever come across.
As for your total nonsensical posting of womens accomplishments, what was it in reply of? Did anyone in this thread say anything negative about women?
No.. I don't see anything of the sort.

Originally Posted by kunitokotachi

Also, Japan is in trouble because women are working more? All right Sherlock you explain to me how academically or don't say anything at all. Furthermore, in all actuality what the fuck do you know about Japanese lifestyle? Don't give me a link to .com or a news website. Put up some serious peer-reviewed data or back your ass up.

Oy Vey.
People like you think you are so professional and hide behind "studies" and "peer reviews" while the truth looms in front of them.
What do YOU know about women or men if you're one or the other? Are you a woman or a man? Why are you typing up womens accomplishments? Why are you pathetically arguing with me that a FATHER is more naturally inclined to raise offspring? Are YOU a father who has been in the same situation? Have YOU got DATA to back YOUR ass up? Have you seen a mass CASE of MALES raising their children FULL TIME?
Also what has a natural process of all HUMANITY just got to do with JAPAN?! It is WELL KNOWN that Japan has a population crisis. Do I really need to make a freaking professional citation on a forum just so YOU can understand?!

Just wow. Your short sightedness makes me sad.

Originally Posted by Amnell

Ah... Well, the thing you need to remember about debating with anyone who is devout (and I mean devout) in Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is that they're all taught that the man is the head of the household. In many cases (I'd say 'most', but I can't back that), people of these faiths take that to the next level: women are supposed to be subservient to men. Since ivi0nk3y is in fact a muslim, you should expect that his views on gender roles are a little more conservative. Even with me, being raised in an obscure sect of Christianity, expect some gender bias (though I've been trying to retrain myself XP ) .

Excuse me but I am not even basing my views on Religion. Thank you for acting as a mediator but I will not take bullshit lying down. I have argued with this guy/girl before and he/she has gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what the real issues are about. I believe the thread was something about why cars are a "guy" thing.
This "person" took what I said totally out of context and made claims about me being sexist when I had said NOTHING sexist at all. I replied back and did not get a response about my so called sexism.
People like this do nothing but make an argument worse by taking away from whatever issue is being discussed.

ps. Thank you Noodle for also speaking on my behalf. As usual your posts make plenty of sense to me lol.
Anyway, It is not a 19th Century view that women stay home and raise kids.
In fact as I recall the vote was given to women just the previous century, in the West.. lol. Nevermind going out to look for jobs?
I already stated that Women can do what they want soooo manyyyy timessss.
If however, Japan has a population crisis, then there IS a problem. I stated that this model of Japan can be seen as something to stay clear of.
Who do we blame for whats gone wrong though?
Do we uphold a false sense of political correctness ahead of THE crisis?
It annoys me when people don't take the key points out of someones post and digress to something that doesn't even matter.

[SSJup81]

I think what kunitokotachi was saying is that we need both parents to raise children, and it should be irrelevant if a woman is better with children or not. Some men turn out to be better than women in this regard. It shouldn't always be "up to the mother" and women should be allowed to make the choice of whether or not she wants to pursue a career, or be stuck raising a family. In all honesty, it's not fair that women are faced with such choices and men aren't. Men should have to face the same responsibilities that a mother has to where child raising is concerned. Not all women are cut out to be the type to stay at home and raise children.