China: New Superpower?

[MissMisa]

I thought this documentry may be of some interest to the people debating in this thread.

BBC iPlayer - Panorama: China's Olympic Promise

I watched it yesterday and it's very interesting. It's only half an hour long, so if you have some spare time, do watch it.

[Henbaka]

Yeah countries with leaders that don't have to prove to the people they should/are qualified to lead doesn't 'float my boat'

Originally Posted by noodle

Is the media free? I don't know, but I don't see why it shouldn't be. Like the question Ronin4hire so convinienlty dodged earlier in this thread, if the chinese recieve news from abroad (proven, because they boycotted french products due to french protests), wouldn't they do something about their so-called lying/hiding media

Well, for one thing media is a great instrument to be used by a state (in the case of single-party states, this ain't too unusual...). So for that reason, a free media really hurts.

I don't see your point here. Have you considered that it may be next to impossible for people to "do something" about it? I mean, how would you go about it, just say "hey, we need free media, now!"?

What mainly sticks out for me there, is that in every country people have differing opinions about...well everything. That includes how the country should be and is run. But with a single-party state like China, this discussion isn't allowed as it is pointless anyhow, when you don't have elections with different parties of different opinions anyways... And I don't know about you, but that seems wrong to me.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Henbaka

Yeah countries with leaders that don't have to prove to the people they should/are qualified to lead doesn't 'float my boat'



Well, for one thing media is a great instrument to be used by a state (in the case of single-party states, this ain't too unusual...). So for that reason, a free media really hurts.

I don't see your point here. Have you considered that it may be next to impossible for people to "do something" about it? I mean, how would you go about it, just say "hey, we need free media, now!"?

What mainly sticks out for me there, is that in every country people have differing opinions about...well everything. That includes how the country should be and is run. But with a single-party state like China, this discussion isn't allowed as it is pointless anyhow, when you don't have elections with different parties of different opinions anyways... And I don't know about you, but that seems wrong to me.

I think it is whatever floats your boat to be honest. If everyone agreed with you, the chinese would do something about it... But obviously, the chinese are pretty happy with their current government, and why wouldn't they be? The life of average chinese is improving every single day (even Tibetans).

Who knows, but from history, we know that if something is really that important to the "people", we will hear about it and eventually, something will be done (even if it's not really what they wanted).

I somewhat agree with you if it was concerning me, but you gotta think about it from the Chinese point of view. It's like the communism debate... People will argue for and against, but at the end of the day, it's a personal preference. What's important is what the government does. Heck, I wouldn't mind living under a dictator if he improved my life.

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I thought this documentry may be of some interest to the people debating in this thread.

BBC iPlayer - Panorama: China's Olympic Promise

I watched it yesterday and it's very interesting. It's only half an hour long, so if you have some spare time, do watch it.

Thanks... I'll check it out when I get home...

[Henbaka]

Originally Posted by noodle

I think it is whatever floats your boat to be honest. If everyone agreed with you, the chinese would do something about it... But obviously, the chinese are pretty happy with their current government, and why wouldn't they be? The life of average chinese is improving every single day (even Tibetans).

Who knows, but from history, we know that if something is really that important to the "people", we will hear about it and eventually, something will be done (even if it's not really what they wanted).

I somewhat agree with you if it was concerning me, but you gotta think about it from the Chinese point of view. It's like the communism debate... People will argue for and against, but at the end of the day, it's a personal preference. What's important is what the government does. Heck, I wouldn't mind living under a dictator if he improved my life.

"If everyone agreed with you, the chinese would do something about it.."
Can you see how flawed this argument is? Without even talking about China (or any country in particular) it is a fact that just "doing something" is not an option in many cases. You don't just create a political opposition in a single-party state if that's what you want. You seem to think it just for the people to decide to make a change, and "just do it", when clearly that's not easy (impossible for many) to do. That's my point about "freedom". Yes, if China was truly a "free" country, people could "do something".

Political debates such as you mentioned is kind of my points. They are a good thing because they mean that people of different opinions will be heard (whether you're a commi or capi). How many parties exist in a single-party state? Yeah, that makes for a good debate.

I sure hope it's improving.

Btw, about the dictator thing. That's exactly what I mentioned earlier... Look at history - which dictatorships proved to be a good thing? Then rethink your statement, if you would ever risk to live under a dictator...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Henbaka

"If everyone agreed with you, the chinese would do something about it.."
Can you see how flawed this argument is? Without even talking about China (or any country in particular) it is a fact that just "doing something" is not an option in many cases. You don't just create a political opposition in a single-party state if that's what you want. You seem to think it just for the people to decide to make a change, and "just do it", when clearly that's not easy (impossible for many) to do. That's my point about "freedom". Yes, if China was truly a "free" country, people could "do something".

I sure hope it's improving.

Btw, about the dictator thing. That's exactly what I mentioned earlier... Look at history - which dictatorships proved to be a good thing? Then rethink your statement, if you would ever risk to live under a dictator...

Dude, what's flawed about your logic is that you don't seem to realise that if something was that important to the majority, ANYTHING is possible. How do you think countries gained independence in the past? Do you think it was easy for them? According to you, it was near impossible, yet it was done... It took many years, it wasn't easy, but because most people believed in it, it was done... Anything that hurts the people as a whole ends up with a revolution occuring, which the chinese would easily do if it ever came to it.

I got a question for you... You know all this lack of freedom you talk off. Why is it Chinese people abroad, don't complain nearly as much as foreigners? Why is it you see Chinese defend their country and government? This is why I asked you earlier if you think they're trained dogs. When they have the option to speak freely, why don't they use it? Why do they choose to defend their land?

As for the dictator, there have been plenty of dictators. Ever heard of General Franco of Spain, or the current president of Pakistan? Though, I would agree that most dictators let power get into their heads and hence end up staying in power far longer than they're needed, sometimes, some of them are good for the people. Heck, most civil wars would have been a waste if it weren't for dictators. Therefore, if a dictator is doing more good than bad for my country, I would happily live there...

Another example of a great dicator is Charles De Gaulle... Had he stepped down when his time was over, people would've looked at him as a hero forever.
What about Syria? People lived in a dictatorship, and they got peace, whereas the neighbours, Iraq, went for a democracy, and look where it is today...

[Henbaka]

Originally Posted by noodle

Dude, what's flawed about your logic is that you don't seem to realise that if something was that important to the majority, ANYTHING is possible. How do you think countries gained independence in the past? Do you think it was easy for them? According to you, it was near impossible, yet it was done... It took many years, it wasn't easy, but because most people believed in it, it was done... Anything that hurts the people as a whole ends up with a revolution occuring, which the chinese would easily do if it ever came to it.

I got a question for you... You know all this lack of freedom you talk off. Why is it Chinese people abroad, don't complain nearly as much as foreigners? Why is it you see Chinese defend their country and government? This is why I asked you earlier if you think they're trained dogs. When they have the option to speak freely, why don't they use it? Why do they choose to defend their land?

As for the dictator, there have been plenty of dictators. Ever heard of General Franco of Spain, or the current president of Pakistan? Though, I would agree that most dictators let power get into their heads and hence end up staying in power far longer than they're needed, sometimes, some of them are good for the people. Heck, most civil wars would have been a waste if it weren't for dictators. Therefore, if a dictator is doing more good than bad for my country, I would happily live there...

Another example of a great dicator is Charles De Gaulle... Had he stepped down when his time was over, people would've looked at him as a hero forever.
What about Syria? People lived in a dictatorship, and they got peace, whereas the neighbours, Iraq, went for a democracy, and look where it is today...

Who's to say big changes over there won't come? I've never said it's impossible for the people to make changes in the government happen. But you seem to think it's just "go do it". And I think stuff is happening. For instance I've heard the judicial system have improved much in just the recent decades


If you look at all revolutions, there is suffering preceeding them. Does that mean one should just let everything run it's course until people decide to risk to "do something"? (not only China)

And, yes that is sometimes exactly the problem with dictators. They start out good but things so good as always deterioate, and they still want to hold on to the power. Dictators are mostly really appealing from the start (good at propaganda etc). It seems your opinion if dictator is more of the roman kind, that stepped in when needed and then handed power back to the people. But there are so many horrific examples of cruel dictatorships that show it just doesn't work that way anymore.

I don't know hardly anything about french history, but wasn't de Gaulle titulated as president?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Henbaka

Who's to say big changes over there won't come? I've never said it's impossible for the people to make changes in the government happen. But you seem to think it's just "go do it". And I think stuff is happening. For instance I've heard the judicial system have improved much in just the recent decades


If you look at all revolutions, there is suffering preceeding them. Does that mean one should just let everything run it's course until people decide to risk to "do something"? (not only China)

And, yes that is sometimes exactly the problem with dictators. They start out good but things so good as always deterioate, and they still want to hold on to the power. Dictators are mostly really appealing from the start (good at propaganda etc). It seems your opinion if dictator is more of the roman kind, that stepped in when needed and then handed power back to the people. But there are so many horrific examples of cruel dictatorships that show it just doesn't work that way anymore.

I don't know hardly anything about french history, but wasn't de Gaulle titulated as president?

I didn't say it was just "go do it" and you're assuming things by labling me as someone that thinks that. All I'm saying is that if things were bad, things would change... lol, reminds me of a funny thing my chinese friend said. He told me, if China was as bad as the west made out, he would be living through a revolution... That kinda sums it up I guess...

I didn't deny that most dictators are terrible, but to think that all are bad isn't right. And yes, I am talking about the Roman dicatorship type... They still do exist... Just look at Chile in the 70's (?).

France are at the forefront of Human rights and Freedom of speach, mainly because of Charles De Gaulle. 1968. De Gaulle was meant to leave as head of state a couple years after the independence of Algeria (1962), i.e. 1965. He stayed on, and a load of things happened, and in May 1968, student protests occured all over France (now, it's kinda celebrated, May 1968) which eventually broke down De Gaulles government... Just search for May 1968 France on google or something, and I'm pretty sure you'll find loads about it.

And yes, he was the first President...

[Henbaka]

So he was a president after all.. I just want to say that one of your chinese friends can speak for China as little as I can speak for Sweden or an american can speak for the USA.

Anyways. We're not gonna agree on anything, and I'm not so very interested in this that I want to spend my whole evening going back and forth, so I'll leave it at that. Atleast you didn't call me names, which I appreciate.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Henbaka

So he was a president after all.. I just want to say that one of your chinese friends can speak for China as little as I can speak for Sweden or an american can speak for the USA.

Anyways. We're not gonna agree on anything, and I'm not so very interested in this that I want to spend my whole evening going back and forth, so I'll leave it at that. Atleast you didn't call me names, which I appreciate.

Why would I call you names? I only insulted Ronin4hire for his lack of respect. I guess you haven't really seen any of my posts before, so I guess it was a bad intro to me by reading my replies to Ronin.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by noodle

Dude, have you even read anything I've written in this thread? I haven't claimed that China was some kind of heavan.

Yet you minimise the Tibetan incident because you "spent a month there, saw how it really was and now know that the Western media coverage of Tibet was all propaganda"... give me a break.

Seriously you're behaving just like a US neo-conservative complaining about the "liberal media conspiracy" and your defensive stance of China is the like a neo-con defending US policy as ultimately just and righteous despite all the evidence to the contrary.