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09-14-2008, 09:14 AM
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Look how "Free-trade" defined by Bush benefited America. Quote:
Hundreds of thousands of jobs. You can buy a house in Detroit for a dollar. 
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09-14-2008, 10:07 AM
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What I find more bothersome about both parties plans is the way they are short term stimulus plans. Under either plan most tax cuts, would end in 2011. I want a long term outlook that will benefit us for decades to come. Not just until it's time to think about the next election.  The Honored of Valhöll are: Acidreptile: my spiritual brother, smilexfreak7: milaya moya sestra Tsuzuki: my dark goddess, =Kanji: the eternal wanderer, Zenit: future world conquer, Michieru: self proclaimed mastermind of genius and the rest of my family in the ~+VaMpiRe ClAn+~
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09-14-2008, 10:38 AM
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History is the past, everyone is simply saying they will do good in Americas and keep its history whereas Obama says we will do good in Americas people and change our future.
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09-14-2008, 10:59 AM
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The Honored of Valhöll are: Acidreptile: my spiritual brother, smilexfreak7: milaya moya sestra Tsuzuki: my dark goddess, =Kanji: the eternal wanderer, Zenit: future world conquer, Michieru: self proclaimed mastermind of genius and the rest of my family in the ~+VaMpiRe ClAn+~
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09-15-2008, 01:46 AM
MMM, as a home owner in America I paid very little income tax. My single income came just below the "wealthy" $80k limit. After deductions for mortgage interest and such, the amount of tax I paid was very small.
Bush reduced my tax over what I paid when Clinton was in charge. The extra money I had each month allowed enough room in my budget to buy a nicer new car. It was a GM car, and the people of Detroit benefitted. You cannot blame the federal government for the job losses in Detroit, you can blame the American people and the auto manufacturers for that. It was the people who demanded large SUVs which used so much gasoline, and the manufacturers who were ignorant enough not to develop more fuel-efficient cars. Once again, taxes are one of the main forces causing businesses to close, or to outsource overseas. Bush's tax cuts helped the economy, but income tax is not the only tax out there. You have property tax, land use tax, utility tax (in some places, half of your phone bill consists of tax), gas tax, business specific tax, mandatory insurance requirements, various environmental impact taxes and fees, fines and assessments, vehicle licensing and registration fees, tolls, etc, etc, etc. 90% of these taxes are levied at the state and local level. Can anyone give me a logical argument as to how any kind of tax rate increase will help anyone in America?
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09-15-2008, 02:14 AM
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Being a homeowner in America doesn't mean you pay very little income tax. The argument is, and Reagan tried to make it, too, is that if you tax the rich and corporations less, they will turn around and put that money back into America...basically the situation you described. It's called "trickle-down economics" and the reality is that it didn't trickle down that far. The Bush tax breaks are living proof of it. McCain supports them, and look at the state of the American economy now. But the essential key is beyond the tax hikes or cuts, and is how the money is allocated and used. Done responsibly, of course a tax increase on those making a lot of money ($225,000 or more, I believe) can be beneficial to the country as a whole. Done irresponsibly, it could lead to more havoc in the economy. And this is a quote from Honda's President and CEO, Takeo Fukui: “Contrary to what some executives are saying, there is more content from U.S. based suppliers in some of our vehicles than there is in many of the vehicles from Detroit.”
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09-15-2008, 06:46 AM
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What happened after the Reagan tax cuts? Revenue increased. The only reason that the deficit also increased was Reagan's massive military spending. At the time, the cold war was still being "fought". The Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan, and was at work with it's puppets in the middle east, as well as central and south America. "Trickledown economics" has earned an ill-deserved reputation, despite the fact that they worked, and that tax revenues increased after they were enacted. Chrysler re-emerged from bankruptcy and became profitable, as did Harley Davidson. Ford and GM recovered from the billions of dollars in debt which they had incurred during the 70's. The standard of living in America increased, and unemployment decreased. Tell me again that "trickledown" economics don't work. Why is the state of the economy bad at the moment? I'll give you a list. First, the collapse of the real estate markets. In order to stimulate investment and keep growth strong, Alan Greenspan and the treasury kept interest rates at a low level. Low interest rates lowered the cost of mortgages, making homes less expensive to finance. As a result, more people began to buy homes. Real estate began to appreciate at a rapid rate. Because of the rapid appreciation, banks loosened their lending standards, the logic being that if the borrower couldn't pay there would be no risk, since the value of the property would have likely appreciated to a level above the amount of the loan. Widepsread speculation in real estate began, which quickly raised the prices to an unsustainable level. My own house escalated in value from $80k to $250k, which I knew to be ludicrous, given the area's median income. All of the houses in my area were reassesed at higher levels, my property tax more than doubled. Then hurricances Katrina, Rita, and Wilma hit. My property insurance quadrupled. All the sudden, my insurance and tax were now costing me more per month than my mortgage. It was ridiculous. But my mortgage was only $800 a month. The people next door to me had just bought their home for $240k on an adjustable rate mortgage, and even with the low 1% intro rate, their payments were $1200 a month. When the rate readjusted to 5.9 percent, ther payments increased to $2500 per month. And they still had to pay tax and insurance above this amount. Is it any wonder that the foreclosure rate in Florida is the highest in the nation? Increases in the price of real estate resulted in increases in property taxes throughout America. In places like Texas, the increase was not a big deal, but in places like New York City where taxes were already astronomical, it was quite painful. Next, Katrina. The cost of that disaster to the federal treasury was enough to buy every household in the affected areas 2 new homes and 2 new cars. Never mind that since the government handled the disbursement of the money almost all of it was squandered. Next, the price of oil increased. Demand from India and China began to increase. Never mind that production was also increasing to meet that demand. Those who were no longer making money in the real estate market needed a place to park their money. The energy markets were just the place. Speculation tripled the price of oil for no justifiable reason. The federal government was not able to regulate the speculators as oil is sold on the world market. Increases in the price of oil led to increasing prices in other commodities, increasing inflation, and devaluing the dollar. Next, the fighting of 2 simultaneous wars. The total cost over the last 5 years has been almost $500 billion dollars. Arguing whether these wars were necessary or not at the moment is irrelevant. They are being fought, and war is an expensive enterprise. Given the events which have occured over the last 8 years, it's amazing to me that the economy isn't worse than it is. It has endured incredible difficulty. Unprecedented attacks against our country, costly natural disasters, ridiculous increases in the price of energy, the collapse of banks. One cannot expect any economy to do well under such circumstances, but, as bad as it has been, it could far too easily have been much worse. If you said that the tax cuts were partly responsible, you would be right, they are responsible for the economy not being worse. My uncle earns about $300k per year. He owns a small business which employs about 20 people. With his income he had a house built. He used his money to buy the property, so the property owners benefitted. He hired an achictect to design the house, the architectural firm benefitted. He hired contractors to build the house, the crew of 20 workers earned a good income during the months it took to build the house. He had to furnish the house, so he bought furniture from the local furniture outlet. The outlet made some money, as did the makers of the furniture. For all this, he still invests most of his money in his business. The purchasing of machines, materiels, trucks, advertising, and the hiring of people. Times weren't always easy for him, for a few years he and his family lived in a trailer behind his business. He had only 5 employees and 3 trucks, through hard work and perseverence, he has become successful, and it is people like him that make America's economy strong. How, exactly, would increasing his taxes help the economy? The money he earns is returned to the economy in a productive way. He buys goods and services which Americans provide. The people he employs in his company also buy goods and services. He's not voting for Obama.
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09-15-2008, 07:09 AM
Sangetsu, I appreciate your knowledge and experience.
You can say "What happened after the Reagan tax cuts? Revenue increased. The only reason that the deficit also increased was Reagan's massive military spending. " but you are mixing apples and oranges. Trickle-down economics worked incredibly well...for people like your uncle. But for people that weren't making 300k a year the benefits weren't as obvious. And were are not only in a similar state, but a worse state right now, in more expensive war(s) and bankruptcies and foreclosures at record highs. More of the same is not the answer. I do not blame the entire ARM situation on the Bush administration, but their hands are not entirely clean either. If our economy hinges on hurricanes, then we need to do something different. McCain wants to drill more off the coast of Florida, Louisiana and Texas. On the eve of another oil price hike thanks to Ike, does that make sense? I already answered your tax question, and don't feel the need to repeat myself. I understand and applaud your uncle. I wish he was more representative of the rich in America.
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09-15-2008, 08:39 AM
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My uncle would appreciate the applause, but he would tell you that he is only one of hundreds of thousands who work hard and employ people. Those who are rich have a much more profound knowledge of how the economy works than those who teach the subject at universities. You might think that $300k per year is a lot of money, but it's relative. His money is not hoarded away in an overseas account. It is spent on things like the college educations of his children, maintaining his house, his and his wife's cars, clothes, food, and other consumable items. His income is spread out to a variety of other businesses who use it to pay their own bills. He could pay more in taxes, but to what benefit? What exactly would the government do with it? It wouldn't be bad if there were responsible people in government who knew how to handle the taxpayer's money and use it wisely. The people who go into state local governments are not the best or the brightest, and they often are not the most honest. No investment in the world will give you a poorer return than the government will. I don't believe Obama or McCain are capable of making any real changes. Honestly, Obama probably has less chance than McCain, as he is much more beholden to his party. The more quickly one wants to advance in government, the more promises he has to make. Obama has risen very fast. Pardon me if I sound cynical, but when it comes to politics, there are few other emotions which are more appropriate. As for oil and offshore drilling, I used to live in Florida. Florida law prohibits US oil companies from drilling within 100 miles of the coast. The problem is, international waters begin only 3 miles away from shore. The law is only binding to American companies, which means that foreign oil companies can legally drill as close as 3 miles to our shore. Cuba and Venezuela have already been exploring areas of the gulf within the 100 mile boundary. China has also been exploring these waters. These foreign companies are not held to the same standards of environmental safety as American companies, and as a result, the odds of an oil spill or other catastrophe may only be increased because the only companies that can drill near our coasts are unregulated foreign companies. The economy does not hinge on hurricanes. It was not a disruption in oil supplies which caused the spike in oil prices. It was speculation in oil which was to blame. Speculation must be reigned in. Speculation in oil has caused the energy crisis, speculation in real estate caused the mortgage crisis. Speculation was also to blame for the previous collapses of the housing and stock markets. Leave the taxpayers alone and shake up Wall Street. Make them feel the consequences of their actions in the short term as opposed to the present system where their mistakes add up over a period of time to the point where we all have to feel the consequences.
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09-16-2008, 09:52 AM
As you may have seen in the news today or yesterday, Lehman Brothers and Merryl Lynch have collapsed. The banks here in Tokyo are having a tizzy. My GF works for one of the few investment banks which hasn't been consumed by the current mess.
I'm just waiting now to see who points the finger at who. It will all be a farce because both parties are equally to blame. It is the politicians on both sides of the aisle who have modified and manipulated our tax code over the years to the point where it is over 8500 pages long, and consists of upwards of 60,000 rules and regulations. The politicians are resistant to changing the current system as their real political power is exercised in the fine print of the tax code. The tax code is how they repay special interests for campaign contributions, and how they hurt those whom they dislike. It is so indecipherable that few human beings in the world have any idea what it truly contains. Their meddling is not limited to just the tax code. There are also codes regulating pensions, investments, insurance, and whatnot. These codes are manipulated to increase profit and decrease the risk of the banks, insurance companies, etc, and shifts the costs of their losses to the taxpayers. The greed of our politicians and the greed of Wall Street has finally caused their collective house of misdeeds to collapse. I wish we could redo the election primaries, I doubt we would end up with any of the same candidates whom we have now. It's going to be interesting to watch them blame everybody and anybody but themselves. The chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Finance is Barney Frank, the senate committee is chaired by Christopher Dodd. Neither of these morons has the ability to organize their checkbooks properly (Frank is under investigation by the IRS for failure to report income, and he also under investigation by the ethics committee an a related issue). Frank and Dodd (and the other ranking members of each committee) should be held even more responsible than the "greedy bankers" that they are sure to malign in their next speeches. It is these prostitute- I mean "politicians" whom we elected to keep the bankers under control. If you want "real change" in the government, do not vote for any member on either of these committees, Democrat or Republican. You can get the committee membership list by doing a search on "house/senate committee on banking". Many of these senators and congressmen are up for reelection this November. BTW, MMM, the "wealthy" 25% tax tier begins at an income of $78,000 (it was lowered to this level by the Clinton administration when they increased taxes on the "wealthy"). The tier increases to 30% at $332,000.
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