McCain's Speech

[Ryzorian]

Because it's the American way, everyone has the right to become part of the 1%. This 99% BS is just the lazy 49% getting in the way of the industrious 51% who are tired of paying for them.

By the way, the Rockafellers, Vanderbuilts, Morgans, Sachs..all mega rich and untouchable because of said trustfunds. The only ones getting hurt by these "progressive" taxes are those who work hard trying to become rich. The taxes are built to keep them from getting rich, it's all bogus.

Flat tax all the way, that way the 49% of peeps who don't pay taxes, pay "thier fair shair". The other 51% pay for everything allready, time for the lazy bums who don't pay anything to carry thier own weight.

Plus we need far less government spending, and I mean cut government spending by 2 plus trillion a year. Medicare, Social Security, welfare, all of it has to go, good bye. That stuff is the peoples responsability, not governments. The government takes care of national defense and infrastructure and that's it. Everything else is State, local and you.

You have the right to succeed or fail on your own merits in this country. If you succeed..AWSOME..if you don't..try again or go back to the country of orgin. It's like people forget what this country was built on..Rugged individualisim, you against the wild. People helped each other in small communities, they didn't rely on government, hell they didn't expect government to even show up.

[Tsuwabuki]

...see what I mean about repeating the lie so often, people start to believe it, GoNative?

We are no longer a country barely united where our identity and loyalty were directed mostly towards our immediate community, or, at best, towards our individual state. Those days are so far behind us, your rose-colored past spectacles must be working over time if you think any of what you describe applies to modern nation states. We are a national, and indeed transnational, community.

Not everyone is capable of becoming part of the 1%. Not everyone has the opportunity. The idea of the American dream including a feasible "equality of opportunity" is total bullshit. Walk yourself down to South Dallas or Vine City Atlanta, and tell me those minority children in crumbling school buildings sharing twenty year old textbooks have "equality of opportunity." If you can look me in the eye and tell me that with a straight face after seeing the conditions yourself, I will eat my hat.

If modern economics worked like the Smithian invisible hand in a monetary system, then no one would be teachers or firefighters or police officers or sanitation workers or artists! These are areas where, with a few exceptions here and there, demand is never high enough to allow individuals from those areas of human endeavor to be so in demand they become part of the 1%. You would have these people barely make ends meet while providing necessary society improving services, services that help the 1% in many cases.

That's wrong. You're wrong.

49% of Americans cannot pay taxes because if they paid a flat tax, like you suggest, it would impede their ability to stay out of poverty. They would default on mortgages, not make rent, have to choose between clothes and food, and end up on the street, in which case without unemployment, medicare, social security, or welfare they would end up homeless, sick, malnourished, and increasingly desperate. You think the Occupy Wall Street protests are bad? Just wait until all those people have NOTHING, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, to lose!

You have the right to succeed or fail on your own merits, but you also damn well have the right to expect that society is going to be there, with some sort of social safety net, to catch you when you fall, and provide services like healthcare and education that create productive members of society. Rising tides lift all boats, and we all gain when we take care of each other. In our modern world, that is a proper role of government, and I will keep voting for politicians that agree with me, and I will keep paying taxes so that others might have a social safety net when they need it.

The ultrarich and their middle class spokespeople, such as yourself, need to stop thinking so much about your "individual rights" and start thinking more about your "individual and collective obligations" and "responsibilities" to your fellow citizens.

[GoNative]

Ryzorian your argument is so ridiculous it's barely worth replying to but oh well I can't help myself. Marginal tax rates don't impede the mega rich from getting richer, that's a ridiculous concept. You have to be earning well over $400,000 per year in the US to have an effective tax rate in excess of 30%. This is a ridiculously low amount of tax to pay for such an income. Remember in Australia (who's economy is doing really well) you reach an effective tax rate of 30% if you earn in excess of only $130,000. I can assure you it has not hindered our population from becoming very wealthy. And in Australia we have universal healthcare, a just welfare system, we get 20 days a year paid annual leave as a minimum, we have paid maternity and paternity leave, our minimum wage is double that of the US, we have no upfront costs to attend tertiary education making it accessible for all, we don't have a nation full of numbnuts with guns and this list could go on and on and on. All you really seem to want is a country which has no social responsibility. A purely dog eat dog society where the poor can go fuck themselves whilst the rich get richer and richer. All I can say is what a truly horrible society you wish to live in. Compared to most other modern nations you already have one of the most right wing, greedy, capitalist societies and yet you want it to go even further that way? You really are one very mixed up individual.

[Ryzorian]

Gonative; Taxes should be the same for everyone period. Everyone should pay 10%. If your so upset about it then get rid of the income tax...wich has questionable legal grounds anyway and go with a flat 10% sales tax. Everybody would pay that reguardless of station.

Not to mention that orgianlly taxes from government were to be small and brief. Plus, legally they had to tell you what was being taxed, for what reason the tax was being levied, and how long the tax was going to last.

Tsuwabuki; Yes, I will tell you with a straight face that those people in the inner city have the oppertunity if they so choose, oft times they are conditioned by their peers to fail. That's not my fault nor my responsiblity, it's theirs. My great grand dad was a coal miner in Iowa, you know..back when the company owned everything?. Our family made it by working hard and never giveing up.

Many inner city minorities are still enslaved to "the man" and haven't realized it yet. Democrats promise them housing, welfare, medicare, schools, blah blah blah, just so long as they keep voteing Democratic. How long will they linger on the cusp of independence because they wait for "One More Day's" worth of promises that will never come?

You want to succeed in life? do it yourself. Here's a quick lesson. Find a product or service that people want, and provide it at a affordible price. They will pay you for it. That's wealth redistribution at it's finest. What do you think you do every day you shop at Walmart or Burgerking? You give your wealth to them in return for products and service.

That's all any buisiness is doing, the only people those "occupy wallstreet" crowd need to be angery with, is themselves..because they are the consumers that made walmart and company rich.

[Tsuwabuki]

:|

Okay. You've pressed the "I Believe" button on the GOP talking points, and that means we've come to an impasse. There's no way to argue with a true believer.

[Ryzorian]

You have seen the light.

Sorry couldn't resist.

[GoNative]

Why should taxes be the same for everyone? Why shouldn't those who earn more money contribute more? In pretty much every modern nation it is accepted and essential that those who earn more pay higher rates of tax. If a straight tax rate for everyone was desirable why is it not practiced in virtually any developed nation?
Goods and services tax rates are regressive taxes that hurt those on lower incomes disproportionately more than those on higher incomes. Raising them to make up the loss in income tax would be very harmful to those who are most vulnerable. How could you want that?
What I really don't get is you are supposedly a christian. You supposedly believe in the teachings of christ. When did he ever encorage greed? Did he not champion the downtrodden and show compassion for all? Doesn't the sort of system you seem to want fly in the face of his teachings? Or have the christian right in the US twisted the teachings of christ to such an extent that you reckon creating a system that benefits the richest people in society the most is what christ would want? I just don't get it.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

You have seen the light.

Sorry couldn't resist.

That wasn't a compliment.


For GoNative:

[Ryzorian]

Honestly those "modern countries" aren't fair in taxation and now they are on the verge of collapse because of it.

Tax must be the same % for everyone. You succeed or fail on your own merit, no one will help you one way or the other.

How is it fair if you pick 250 bushels of corn, the dude down the street picks30, another one from across town picks 20 and someone in another province doesn't do anything. Then big brother government comes in..takes 200 from you..redistributes it to everyone so you all have 50 and then keeps the rest. How willing will you be to pick 250 bushels of corn next year?...how bout those guys who picked 30,20 and 0 respectively? will they change?.

No, you won't succeed by punishing the successful, you have to incentivise work by allowing those who work hard to become sucessful. You want to win the superbowl, work for it.

Christ threw out Money Lenders because they were selling sacrificial animals in the temple..that's God's house not the banks. He was fine with them being outside the temple.

[Tsuwabuki]

Let's put aside the bushels.

How about the man who picks grapes for whole day, a man who picks grapes for half a day, and a man who picks grapes for only an hour. Then they get the same wage...

OH DAMN. That's a Jesus parable!