"White anti-feminist men in Japan"

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Its an example because I was pointing out something. You think it's not an example just because you say so?
Seriously, I don't have the time to explain something so idiotic to you.




Wow, you talk so much shit. It boggles my mind how you can keep spewing it and not make yourself sick.
Noone said that there was widespread hostility toward the Feminist movement. It is my opinion on it and I am in noway ignorant about this as you like to assume. You will also find that in England, people do not openly discuss what different movements and agendas piss them off. Noone will come up to you and suddenly tell you that "Hey I hate Feminism" or whatever.
People just either dont care or they keep their opinions to themselves until asked.
To think your company was somehow more enlightened, actually made me laugh too.



Yes and what's that going to achieve exactly? It is true that ignorance is what leads people to have a negative view of anything.
I never claimed to be ignorant about Feminism. You just assume to think so because I disagree with something you choose to adopt.

Way to ignore most of what I said. The parallel I drew with Islam was supposed to give you an understanding of how I percieve your views as well as alert you to your ignorance. Instead you chose to focus your response on the words I bracketed rather than the words I bolded. My experience in England and America are afterthoughts which were put there for other people to perhaps pick up and run with.

May I remind you that your position is that feminism today is irrelevant and that the feminist movement today is partly to blame for much of society's ills. If that is not your position then please correct me as that very position is an ignorant one and it is what I'm basing my perception of you as ignorant towards feminism on.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

What? I brought it up because the amount of divorces occuring IS a problem? Wtf are you talking about.



Rofl, and who decided that Women needed you to help them in this day and age? I can just imagine you in a pink frock and a feather duster, off to save the Women who are so oppressed!



I couldn't care much for Hillary but yes, that is definitely an issue and I didn't say it wasn't. Also women who are objectified think they are actually following some kind of dream because their short term desires are fulfilled.
It is women themselves who need to be educated this time, more than anyone else. Once you educate them to stop feeding the objectification, the forms of it will diminish. Why do you need a Feminist to do that? This will just turn all those women into Feminists as well, in turn creating a movement that is not needed. It causes more divisions amongst people physically and mentally, when all that is needed is your lay person to know what is right and wrong.

Answer me this.

I care about such things and have done what I can to stop such shit by simply educating people. However I don't call myself a Feminist.
In this regard, what's the difference between me and you?



Yes the Black Panthers were an organisation of the "Black Nationalism" movement. If I just called myself "Black Nationalist" it would be stupid, so I used the next best thing which was more tangible.

I'm a feminist when it comes to gender issues because I recognise and am familiar with the movement of feminism and I side with it. If indeed you care about issues in which women are disadvantaged societally speaking then perhaps your unwillingness to side with it says something about your ignorance towards the movement and your association of the term with extremist thought and behaviour.

[theAlphaDuck]

to be fair the 60's free love movement,

combined with the later femenist movement ARE responsible for many issues such as the increaced divorse rate.

one of the main reasons for this was that
1. women were no longer dependant on men
2. the stigma surounding divorse was removed

i'm all for respecting women...and i do respect women...

but we will NEVER be equal

and thats just the way it is.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by theAlphaDuck

to be fair the 60's free love movement,

combined with the later femenist movement ARE responsible for many issues such as the increaced divorse rate.

one of the main reasons for this was that
1. women were no longer dependant on men
2. the stigma surounding divorse was removed

i'm all for respecting women...and i do respect women...

but we will NEVER be equal

and thats just the way it is.

We are equal but not in the same ways. When people say equal, they should mean in rights, privileges and respect.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I'm a feminist when it comes to gender issues because I recognise and am familiar with the movement of feminism and I side with it. If indeed you care about issues in which women are disadvantaged societally speaking then perhaps your unwillingness to side with it says something about your ignorance towards the movement and your association of the term with extremist thought and behaviour.

I gave you a reason why I rather not be a Feminist. Don't label me with your own weak judgement because you don't understand what I meant.

Also, you love to point out the assholes on this forum, yet you can't even have a non-provocative talk with someone when your beliefs are put on the line. Either that or you don't know how to form sentences without causing offense.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

I gave you a reason why I rather not be a Feminist. Don't label me with your own weak judgement because you don't understand what I meant.

Also, you love to point out the assholes on this forum, yet you can't even have a non-provocative talk with someone when your beliefs are put on the line. Either that or you don't know how to form sentences without causing offense.

I read why you don't call yourself a feminist.

And I gave you a reason why you COULD be a feminist and hypothesised why you weren't.

It's based on the DICTIONARY (feminism definition |Dictionary.com) and the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

Feminism- (from the dictionary.com link I provided which pulls definitions from multiple sources.)

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

1. a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
2. the movement aimed at equal rights for women

The doctrine — and the political movement based on it — that women should have the same economic, social, and political rights as men.

[Wasabista]

BUMP!

Here's an example of the trouble that radical feminism is causing today.

Concerned Fathers Angry Over Domestic Violence Ads

[Salvanas]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I read why you don't call yourself a feminist.

And I gave you a reason why you COULD be a feminist and hypothesised why you weren't.

It's based on the DICTIONARY (feminism definition |Dictionary.com) and the ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

Feminism- (from the dictionary.com link I provided which pulls definitions from multiple sources.)

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

1. a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
2. the movement aimed at equal rights for women

The doctrine — and the political movement based on it — that women should have the same economic, social, and political rights as men.

I've read through this thread so far, and I've noticed, Ronin that your ideals are the same as mine. But I don't call myself a Feminist.

I'm an egalitarian. I have no doubt that you know what that means. Incase you don't, it's a belief that people in a whole are all equal, and should be treated the same. Be it male, female, black or white. As far as I can see, Feminism is a more... greedier version, where it only leans towards the female society.

[Enkidu22]

I just read this whole topic and I must say I'm surprised that the word "feminism" is now viewed in negative light in the US. In my country it has positive meaning and none of the feminists I met in my life were of the kind that Nyororin described. And with the exception of fundamentalistic catholic conservatists and fev chauvinistic idiots I never heard a person here calling feminism "cancer" or calling themselves anti-feminists. Well maybe modern day feminists in the USA are in majority really a bunch of crazy bitches, but that don't mean it's the same all around the world and it don't mean all US feminists are like that.

Also saying that feminism reached it's goals long ago and it don't have the right to exist today is just wrong. Let me just say that USA was ranked 31 (a fall from 29 in 2006) in 2007 Gender Gap Index, behind countries like Lesotho or Namibia. Women's participation in US politics is around weak 10% while in some european countries it's 40-50%. And in my country feminists are still fighting for things like abortion or government support for lone mothers.

It was mentioned here many times that feminists exaggerate about rape and domestic violence, well look at some facts about rape and domestic violence in the USA:
- around 100 000 rapes are reported in the USA each year and it's one of the most underreported crimes (37% or rapes are reported according to FBI data), and let me add that 2/3 of women's murders have sexual background
- basing on the official US government surveys around 13% of women in the USA are raped at least once during their lifetime, I wonder how those statistics would look if only attractive women were surveyed...
- basing on the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics official data 3/4 of victims of homicide by an intimate partner are women
- 1/3 of all women murdered are killed by their current or former partner (of course, only cases which are solved are included)
- women make up about 85% of the victims of non-lethal domestic violence

And about the "men are as likely to be victims of domestic violence as women" thing, this cites research by Murray Straus, Suzanne Steinmetz, and Richard Gelles, as well as a host of other self-report surveys. Those using this "fact" tend to conveniently leave out the fact that Straus and his colleague's surveys as well as data collected from the National Crime Victimization Survey (Bureau of Justice Statistics) consistently find that no matter what the rate of violence or who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured in acts of intimate violence than are men.

Also saying that women weren't oppressed in the past is plain wrong. In middle ages women were treated like man's possesion, they weren't human but something lower. To cite the original Ten Commandments, the backbone of christianity: " You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour." It clearly shows the women's status in those times. Women weren't allowed education, they couldn't own anything and with marriage they practically became slaves to their husbands. It's true that they weren't expected to fight and die for their country like males were, but the victorious armies regullary raped and abducted women. Also in the primitive agricultural societies women, not men are the main field workers and work much harder than men, not to mention giving birth. The role of women as a full time mother is 18-19th century invention. Before that they were work horses and child-making factories. And I don't even want to start how it looks in fundamentalistic Islam communities.

On the other hand it's true that women aren't really the victims of millennia long male oppresion. Before the rise of Roman Empire and later Christianity women were treated much better. In many ancient societies they had equal or almost equal status as men and many cultures of that time were matrilinear. But the fact is by the time of the middle ages women in Europe were nothing more than man's possesions, and that state lasted for centuries. I won't write how it looked outside of Europe, it would be too much to write.

And it's not like men gave women rights they deserved just because they asked for it. The main factor behind suffragettes success is the First World War, but it's a long topic and I'm really tired of writing.

But anyways I wrote much more than I planned, so I'll end it here.

[ante]

Feminism is dead, the new catchphrase is humanism, at least here in Sweden. That is mainly because a few screaming women, who do not want equallity, but infact dislike men, have given feminism a bad name.

A famous politician in Sweden actually proposed a "man-tax", where men should pay a tax that would go towards helping, and reducing men's violence against women. I don't even think it was a serious proposal, but it stirred up a shit storm and gave feminists a bad name. Other prominent feminists here in Sweden have said that all men are animals, who are all capable of rape at any time.

Affirmative action is another thing that pisses people off.

Some modern feminists have missed the point of the original movement. It's no longer about equal rights, it's about creating an uniformed society. That will not and can never happen unless we are all essential the same. As long as some people are smarter, some people are stronger, some people are prettier, we will not have a uniformed society. Embracing our differences would, in my opinion, be a better way to go, not trying to eliminate them.