Japan intends to distance itself from US (politics)

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kirakira

Because the government is hoping economic properity will shut everyone up, right now Tibet is still economically behind, of course everyone will want to declare independence. It's logical. So the government clampse down hard on decidents, but also at the same time trying to improve everyone's lives through sound macroeconomic policies. When their lives reach a certain standard, people will stop complaining. That's the plan at least.

Seriously, my motto is still, give the people bread and circus, that's the role of the government. I'd rather live in oppressive China than free Zimbabwe.. errr...

You are debating the issue of which one comes first, democracy or propsperity, it is muddy waters indeed.

Anyway human right, what is it anyway? Is it the ability to run your mouth or is it the right to be educated, clothed and fed? To China, right now, the priority is the latter. Makes sense to me.

I'm not debating the issue of democracy versus prosperity.

I'm talking about Tibet's RIGHT as a nation.

If you don't respect those rights then let's agree to disagree and stop right now.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kirakira

What? Surely they are covered by NZ's welfare system and living under NZ's reasonable economic environment? That statement made no sense.

Unless NZ actively discriminates against these people by giving them "democracy" but no social benefits, no health care, no education, no running water, no infrastructure on their patch?

You're being an idiot now.

Maori are New Zealanders. They are entitled to as much as all New Zealanders. If it was ever their will to not be New Zealanders then they have a system which gives them a political voice as Maori and as New Zealanders to work through.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You're being an idiot now.

Maori are New Zealanders. They are entitled to as much as all New Zealanders. If it was ever their will to not be New Zealanders then they have a system which gives them a political voice as Maori and as New Zealanders to work through.

Thanks for calling me an idiot, i thought we could keep this civil and not resort to name calling. Alas. Well I'm just thinking on their behalf. If they declared independence, surely they will lose all those benefits from being part of NZ. So why on earth would they?

Again, bread and circus always wins out (if you read my original post and linked it all up, what I'm saying is that social welfare, education etc. is the bread and circus provided by the government to the Maori). I was trying to hint to you that "Maori aren't being "given" anything." is not strictly correct.

Back to the issue of Tibet, I'm not expressing my opinion here. Tibet is part of China. With China growing more powerful by the day (buying US treasury bills), it is unlikely Tibet's soverignty will change.

My opinion would be i trust the Chinese government would put more emphasis on economic development in the Tibetan region. As the riot last year was mainly for economic reasons (too many shops runned by Hans) rather than we want our lama back.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kirakira

Thanks for calling me an idiot, i thought we could keep this civil and not resort to name calling. Alas. Well I'm just thinking on their behalf. If they declared independence, surely they will lose all those benefits from being part of NZ. So why on earth would they?

Again, bread and circus always wins out.

Back to the issue of Tibet, I'm not expressing my opinion here. Tibet is part of China. With China growing more powerful by the day (buying US treasury bills), it is unlikely Tibet's soverignty will change.

You're missing the point. In a democracy the idea is that the people have the power. Ultimately the only people giving anyone "bread" is themselves.

You might not be expressing your opinion but I'm expressing mine. China invaded Tibet in the 1950's, exiled it's spiritual leader and head of state and has restricted Tibet's right to self-determination. Tibet is only a part of China because it has forced itself onto Tibet.

I have no problem with Tibet being a part of China if that is what Tibet wants. Let Tibetan people have a say in their own future by at least giving them a referendum (like Timor Leste did when they were a part of Indonesia.)

Also I wouldn't be so sure of China's future. The economic recession hit China hard aswell. China has only come to power on the back of the West and other countries. It has a long way to go before it can truly claim global superpower status. Untill that time... what the West thinks matters to China. Hopefully awareness over the injustice which is the Chinese occupation of Tibet can help pressure the CCP into giving them a say at least. (Perhaps all it's citizens will have a say one day)

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Also I wouldn't be so sure of China's future. The economic recession hit China hard aswell. China has only come to power on the back of the West and other countries. It has a long way to go before it can truly claim global superpower status. Untill that time... what the West thinks matters to China. Hopefully awareness over the injustice which is the Chinese occupation of Tibet can help pressure the CCP into giving them a say at least.

Democracy is only one of many means to prosperity... which is bread and circus lol. See there is a common theme in my posts.

My main argument is democracy doesn't always lead to properity, in fact it is the opposite, prosperity will eventually lay the groundworks for democracy to function. Look at the majority of African puppet democracies and India, oh how could I forget Iraq.

As for Tibet, since they were part of Yuan dynasty back 700 years ago or whenever it is, longer than the history of NZ no doubt, opinions of the west will fall on deaf ears within China. What I do hope is that propsperity brought to Tibet by the Chinese government would eventually make them happy.

No doubt China is no superpower, it's economy is still only the 3rd largest, but with such a high savings rate, and a massive government surplus, massive investments in infrastructure, it's looking a lot healther (relatively) than the friends across the globe. It can rely on internal consumption to bail them out.

The US at least has no say thanks to their massive unserviceable national debt so don't count on them in voicing any opinion to China in any capacity (especially now that China is their biggest creditor).

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kirakira

Democracy is only one of many means to prosperity... which is bread and circus lol. See there is a common theme in my posts.

My main argument is democracy doesn't always lead to properity, in fact it is the opposite, prosperity will eventually lay the groundworks for democracy to function. Look at the majority of African puppet democracies and India, oh how could I forget Iraq.

Democracy is the only way to freedom though. In fact in my eyes... prosperity includes freedom and rights. Anyway it's irrelevant to anything I'm saying. You brought that up and it's a lame tangent too. You can't justify oppressing a nation because you think "it's for their own good".

Originally Posted by kirakira

As for Tibet, since they were part of Yuan dynasty back 700 years ago or whenever it is, longer than the history of NZ no doubt, opinions of the west will fall on deaf ears within China.

Again... irrelevant. What matters is the most recent history and Tibet's self-determination. We've covered this... I don't want to go round in circles with you.

Originally Posted by kirakira

No doubt China is no superpower, it's economy is still only the 3rd largest, but with such a high savings rate, and a massive government surplus, it's looking a lot healther (relatively) than the friends across the globe. It can rely on internal consumption to bail them out.

The US at least has no say thanks to their massive unserviceable national debt so don't count on them in voicing any opinion to China in any capacity (especially now that China is their biggest creditor).

Whatever... time will tell whether there is any truth to your soothsaying.

Though I think it is interesting the effect continued globalisation will have on China. I really don't think China, or anyone will be immune to outside influences in the future.

But whatever... time will tell.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Democracy is the only way to freedom though.

Try tell that to Singapore and Saudi Arabia. Noone is complaining there.

But yes time will tell.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by kirakira

Try tell that to Singapore and Saudi Arabia. Noone is complaining there.

Haha... Singapore and Saudi are hardly examples of freedom.

Nobody is complaining? It sounds like you're not listening.

[fluffy0000]

Brookings Insitute Mar2/2009
China's Short-term and Long-term Economic Goals and Prospects
China's Economy, China, Global Economics, Global Financial Crisis, U.S. Economic Growth
Wing Thye Woo, Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Global Economy and Development
U.S.-China Economic and Security
China's economic situation in 2009 does not look good. The 9.0 percent GDP growth rate in 2008 was not representative of the annualized quarter-to-quarter (q-o-q) growth rate of 2.6 percent in the fourth quarter of 2008. Despite Premier Wen Jiabao's prediction in Davos at the end of January 2009 that China's growth would be 8 percent in 2009, the IMF's January 2009 projection was 6.7 percent, which was down from its November 2008 projection of 8.5 percent. The February 2009 estimate of the number of jobs lost by migrant workers was 20 million, which was double the estimate of December 2008; and an additional 6 to 7 million rural residents were expected to join the migrant work force. The factory-gate price index fell 3.3 percent in January 2009 and is expected to fall 6.3 percent in February 2009. The pace of China's growth slowdown has consistently exceeded the expectations of the Chinese government and most outside analysts.

Why does China have high savings rate?

China’s current account surplus exists because its dysfunctional financial system cannot intermediate the growing savings into investments. The private savings rate is high because China does not have the variety of financial institutions that would, one, pool risks by providing medical insurance, pension insurance, and unemployment insurance; and, two, transform savings into education loans, housing loans, and other types of investment loans. The backward financial system in China has made the private savings rate in China 7.0 to 12.2 percentage points higher than in the US.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by fluffy0000

China’s current account surplus exists because its dysfunctional financial system cannot intermediate the growing savings into investments. The private savings rate is high because China does not have the variety of financial institutions that would, one, pool risks by providing medical insurance, pension insurance, and unemployment insurance; and, two, transform savings into education loans, housing loans, and other types of investment loans. The backward financial system in China has made the private savings rate in China 7.0 to 12.2 percentage points higher than in the US.

You are right about insurance, but it's not the bank's role, it's the government's role. The main reason for the savings rate is culture (being thrifty is seeing as a virtue) and also lack of a safety net in social services. People need to stash up for a rainy day in China because there is no Medicare or unemployment benefits or anything like that should things go wrong.

It may not be perfect but China is in hell of lot of a better position than US at the moment which pumped up its phoney economy through reckless borrowing. With the national debt at 11 Trillion or whatever it is now, the US is practically bankrupt, and the printing press is running 24/7 (or will be if at any stage China refuses to buy more treasury bills).

What China needs to do is spur internal consumption to save itself, it cannot rely on US to consume forever. The fall in demand from the US is what's mainly causing China so much pain. Luckily, the government isn't stupid and it is doing this now by giving farmers REBATES on white goods and also city dwellers REBATES on small cars (up to 1.6L), another xxx billions in public health, and of course $1 Trillion yuan in mainly infrastructure investments.

How effective this is, well the jury is still out but spending money on infrastructure is gotta be a lot wiser than spending money to prop up demand. You can't spend yourself out of a recession, you have to PRODUCE your way out of it.

Yes the Chinese banking system is far from great but right now it's doing a hell of a lot better than the US, none of which is worth a penny.