Race Discussion

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

What makes West Africans a race then? Biologically speaking. Because as I've said... I've never even heard of West Africans as a race even politically speaking.



What reason is that?

What are the scientific human categorizations? (And if you say Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid then you deserve to be beaten about with the 19th century textbook you took that out of)

You made it sound as though I defined race by whether they had fast twitch muscles or not. For the purposes of physical sports research, West Africans were made into their own group due to them being born with fast twitch muscles which research shows, gives them a distinct advantage for sprinting and jumping! I don't know whether they took any other traits into count!

You need to get your facts right dude... Scientists believed that different races were better than others up until 1960's when political correctness came into play. At this time, it ignored any type of research based on the superiority of other races. One of the most famous researches/publications made on the superiority of whites compared to blacks was written in the 1950's. I remember specifically the paper saying that observations showed that around teenage years, Blacks bains' development slowed down compared to other races, specifically whites. As stupid as this sounds, this research is not more than a century old as you like to say!

As for what my catogarizations, I don't have a clue!! If I really cared to put people into groups, I'd put them into groups based on regional differences. But as I don't do research on these things, I am simply repeating things that I've read and understood... AND, I believe, like there are different breeds of Dog, there are different breeds of Human... This however doesn't mean that I believe one is better or worse than the other, or that one is more valuable than the other... It is simply a way to help us understand why there are clear differences between us. Otherwise, one could easily say EVERYONE is different, which is true, but doesn't help anything.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by noodle

You made it sound as though I defined race by whether they had fast twitch muscles or not. For the purposes of physical sports research, West Africans were made into their own group due to them being born with fast twitch muscles which research shows, gives them a distinct advantage for sprinting and jumping! I don't know whether they took any other traits into count!

Well what do you know... A social construct based on an observed tendency within a population. It's been my argument this whole time.

Originally Posted by noodle

You need to get your facts right dude... Scientists believed that different races were better than others up until 1960's when political correctness came into play. At this time, it ignored any type of research based on the superiority of other races. One of the most famous researches/publications made on the superiority of whites compared to blacks was written in the 1950's. I remember specifically the paper saying that observations showed that around teenage years, Blacks bains' development slowed down compared to other races, specifically whites. As stupid as this sounds, this research is not more than a century old as you like to say!

What?

If you're implying that Black's are not as smart as Whites... Well the existence of black people with high IQ's debunks that conclusion right away.

Not to mention that I've never heard of the study you cite. You sure you're not talking sh*t?

Originally Posted by noodle

As for what my catogarizations, I don't have a clue!! If I really cared to put people into groups, I'd put them into groups based on regional differences. But as I don't do research on these things, I am simply repeating things that I've read and understood... AND, I believe, like there are different breeds of Dog, there are different breeds of Human... This however doesn't mean that I believe one is better or worse than the other, or that one is more valuable than the other... It is simply a way to help us understand why there are clear differences between us. Otherwise, one could easily say EVERYONE is different, which is true, but doesn't help anything.

I don't know about dogs... but I know about people.

Humans don't exist in breeds in and of themselves scientifically. The reason you can't name any is because their aren't any. It was a question I knew you couldn't answer.

Anyway... I'm getting bored of this... do some reading then come back to me.

This Wiki article sums things up pretty well.

Race (classification of human beings) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

A social construct. It's been my argument this whole time.



What?

If you're implying that Black's are not as smart as Whites... Well the existence of black people with high IQ's debunks that conclusion right away.

Not to mention that I've never heard of the study you cite. You sure you're not talking sh*t?



I don't know about dogs... but I know about people.

Humans don't exist in breeds in and of themselves scientifically. The reason you can't name any is because their aren't any. It was a question I knew you couldn't answer.

Look it up... I dare you.

WTF are you talking about? Me telling you that your info is wrong because of some scientists' research showing what I said equates to me implying that Blacks are less intellegent???... Dude, the only person I think isn't intellegent is you! If I did believe it, your so called Black's with high IQ debunks it is just stupid! Nothing is absolute in modern science, hence why the majority of modern science today is about statistics and probability (take a look at quantum mechanics for example, or medical therapies for example... Nothing is always 100%. Today's science isn't like classical mechanics where laws had to be made to work for everything). The only way for you to disprove that research is to show that the Majority of blacks have high IQ! Get real dude, it seems you don't know anything about modern Science!

As for me talking sh*t, are you sure you're not talking about yourself... Maybe you should read up on people like J.P.Rushton (who was born in the 40's yet has done lots of research on racial differences), or maybe F. Manetta. Or research on brain size and shape to determine intellegence done by Todd (1923), Pearl (1934), Simmons (1942), Connolly (1950) etc. Nothing has been debunked!!! Just because the majority opinion is that we are the same, it doesn't prove that the minority are wrong!

Riiiiiiight! A question you knew I couldn't answer! Hmmm, that's an amazing way to go about things... I guess you don't know what a human is then since you couldn't answer my question...

EDIT: did you even read the link you posted?!!!

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by noodle

WTF are you talking about? Me telling you that your info is wrong because of some scientists' research showing what I said equates to me implying that Blacks are less intellegent???... Dude, the only person I think isn't intellegent is you! If I did believe it, your so called Black's with high IQ debunks it is just stupid! Nothing is absolute in modern science, hence why the majority of modern science today is about statistics and probability (take a look at quantum mechanics for example, or medical therapies for example... Nothing is always 100%. Today's science isn't like classical mechanics where laws had to be made to work for everything). The only way for you to disprove that research is to show that the Majority of blacks have high IQ! Get real dude, it seems you don't know anything about modern Science!

Oh sure... "some" scientist. Provide me with a link or source and then get back to me. If his work was so groundbreaking and/or controversial then why can't I find it? (I've looked on google...but please.. point me in the right direction)

Nothing is absolute in modern science? Are you referring to the fact that science adopts a position untill a better one comes along? Or that their are a myriad of opinions and hypothesis?

If it's the former... then it's irrelevant. If it's the latter... then at best all you can say is that it's inconclusive as to whether race biologically exists or not.

Originally Posted by noodle

As for me talking sh*t, are you sure you're not talking about yourself... Maybe you should read up on people like J.P.Rushton (who was born in the 40's yet has done lots of research on racial differences), or maybe F. Manetta.

You've given me a psychologist? Seriously... when I said there is no scientific definition of race.. I specifically had the hard sciences in mind (biology in particular). Soft sciences while I have a lot of respect for them... deal in generalities and social constructs and apply race (as a social construct) for convenience rather than because they exist as definitive breeds in and of themselves. Furthermore... while I'm not familiar with the guy... it sounds like his reputation is questionable.

Originally Posted by noodle

Riiiiiiight! A question you knew I couldn't answer! Hmmm, that's an amazing way to go about things... I guess you don't know what a human is then since you couldn't answer my question...

EDIT: did you even read the link you posted?!!!

I simply wanted to see if you'd

a) post bs in response
b) admit that you didn't know

It was designed to stump you.. but unfortunately I forgot who I was dealing with and the former happened.

There is nothing wrong with my answer.

Of course I read the link. It's very balanced. It clearly presents the position of many fields of study.

[noodle]

lol, you're pathetic!! And which one was the bs response? Is it possibly the one where I had "I don't have a clue"...!!!

And yeah, sure, your response is perfect, except you don't even know what genetic sequence means! Your response was a typical thing you'd see in some Tabloid newspaper that talks about clones! You don't have a clue what defines a human in scientific terms. Sure in socialogical terms you'd probably say conciousness, language, art etc, but on scientific terms, you're using random words!!! Nice one dude!

EDIT: haha, and yes, Media reputation is very important to a scientist right? How about you read some of his work for yourself before you question his work... Reputation is useless... I can safely say that the majority of the best scientists in history had a rubish reputation! Afterall, having a different opinion to the norm only ever brings bad rep!!! Try reading some scientists work before having an opinion based on summaries you read on Wikipedia...

Me mentioning was in response to your so called "debunked in the 19th Century"... which if you read what I write for once in you're life, you'll realise that nothing has been debunked! It's just gone silent due to political correctness! Lets face it. Anyone that wishes to do research on whether one race is superior to the other will get shut down directly and be blamed as a racist and negative influence to the world of science. And funnily enough, that's a good way to get bad reputations, before even considering the work done!

[Ronin4hire]

You don't have a clue because they don't exist.

Actually I have a rough idea what genetic sequence means. But you're right. I'm no biologist. I'm not wrong though. You are in that there are no independent human breeds in and of themselves.

EDIT- Funny how you picked up and ran with the reputation thing when my main beef with him was that he was a psychologist and that the soft sciences tend to deal with generalities and tendencies rather than hard evidence (My field of study is considered a soft science too). And you're right... I've never heard of the guy. You complaining about PC destroying the "science of race" is like US Conservatives complaining of the liberal media.

I'm going to close right here for now unless you come up with something new.

I mean there is no hard way (i.e. undisputable and 100% accurate) to define race across the board using consistent variables (whether it be predisposition to fast twitch muscles here, or a dry earwax gene here) it is currently inconclusive and there is no consensus. Because there is currently no way to do it I maintain that race is merely a social construct.

[tohruchan7]

Wo!!! My Head Is Spinning!!

[noodle]

YAY!!! You noticed that? Let's see if you can figure out who I'm imitating

[burkhartdesu]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Gloat in your glory, Ronin. You made the Great Tenchu "back down"!

Or you could look at it the other way, someone who has a general reputation for posting the longest posts, going into the deepest and most heated discussions, and arguing with people until the cows come home, that someone thought you were such a pointless mental wreck he could not even be bothered to reply to your final points...

Geez, Ronin, even Noodle was forced to admit the similarities between raptors and chickens one day. The conclusion they're related can always be up in the air, but it is pretty much the same thing we're talking about.

As so you know, I don't really want to continue this discussion too much. Regardless I value equality for all people (and all things, for that matter), and I approach talks of race in a very scientific, reserved, inpartial, and respectful manner, there are still those among us who are going to play the Nazi card.

I am trying to offend less people on this forum, for personal reasons, and really don't want some butt wrench getting the wrong idea and PMing all the mods telling them Hitler has reincarnated...

Anyway, back to the chicken-raptor, a lot of your points are repeats, Ronin. You do word them differently sometimes, and I keep coming up with new ways to express my ideas, but it really isn't going anywhere. The way I see it, you're actually refusing to acknowledge some of the plainest facts.

I told you there are differences in capabilites in races, I've told you that before, and why, and you still reply saying it isn't true. Regardless, you'll tune into the next Olympics to sit down and watch a bunch of Africans sprinting their arses off to win all the running medals... again...

You're also failing to adress the point I made about how evolution works. Is that the same species will eventually split and make two different ones. Take a look at the gorilla and us, one is extremly stupid, but uber strong, the other is only moderatly stupid, but really weak. Big differences how they turned out when the blood lines split.

Now, I know there is a big time difference, but it doesn't work like you wait 200,000 years and there is no change, then *click*, at the 200,000 mark a donkey spouts wings and flies, and another on the other side of the world grows flippers and swims. That seems to be what you believe.

60,000+ years is a long time, Ronin. To think there is no possibility of undergoing change, both physical and mental, in that time from your cousins, that is unscientific.

Before you come back with the "disadvantaged" heart throb stroy, you might like to know it is not true. There is a shit load more assistance, money, free land (good fu*king land), and so on, available for Australian Aboriginals. Instead, it becomes obvious their biggest weakness is alcohol tolerance, and it is not uncommon to find their petrol sniffing daughters pimped out for a carton of beer.

Why is it criminal in a post Nazi world to simply ponder that reasons for their failure may be due to something called "race"? Differences in bloodlines.

Why is it criminal, also, to merely suggest the reason I am at least 40 kilo bigger than all 25 of my Muay Thai teachers is because of something called "race"?

If you want to come back with the same stuff, Ronin, then don't expect a reply.

Served, Ronin. Served.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

I told you there are differences in capabilites in races, I've told you that before, and why, and you still reply saying it isn't true. Regardless, you'll tune into the next Olympics to sit down and watch a bunch of Africans sprinting their arses off to win all the running medals... again...

*sigh* There is a difference in capabilities when you look at populations as a whole... but when it concerns individuals these differences are meaningless.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

You're also failing to address the point I made about how evolution works. Is that the same species will eventually split and make two different ones. Take a look at the gorilla and us, one is extremly stupid, but uber strong, the other is only moderatly stupid, but really weak. Big differences how they turned out when the blood lines split.

No sh*t.. read what I said though... evolution doesn't happen for the sake of it. You're also ignoring the scientific conclusion that human races are not breeds, sub-species of any sort.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Before you come back with the "disadvantaged" heart throb stroy, you might like to know it is not true. There is a shit load more assistance, money, free land (good fu*king land), and so on, available for Australian Aboriginals. Instead, it becomes obvious their biggest weakness is alcohol tolerance, and it is not uncommon to find their petrol sniffing daughters pimped out for a carton of beer.

You can't simply throw money at a problem. You need a strategy. And while compensating for material losses can be solved easily... treating for the historical psychological damage done to aborigines in terms of identity as a people will take generations.

By the way.... the existence of intelligent Aborigines would be enough to accept that at the very least... lack of predisposition to Intelligence is NOT a trait in identifying Aborigines.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Why is it criminal in a post Nazi world to simply ponder that reasons for their failure may be due to something called "race"? Differences in bloodlines.

Why is it criminal, also, to merely suggest the reason I am at least 30 kilo bigger than all 25 of my Muay Thai teachers is because of something called "race"?

If you want to come back with the same stuff, Ronin, then don't expect a reply.

It's okay to ponder such things... but to ignore the conclusion that your genes rather than your race is the cause of you being bigger than your Muay Thai teachers.

I mean would you still ponder the thought if you were a small white guy as opposed to a big one?