Ninja Vs Samurai

[pumpum]

Originally Posted by rison

Remember this guy?

actually no i havent gota clue lol ! but i wanna know now !!

[pumpum]

Originally Posted by kMal

I think when a Samurai would be challenged by a Ninja, the Ninja would be put away for good. The Samurai are true masters of harmony in battle.

Ninja = dead, because of the betrayal by a fellow Ninja or because of a dangerous mission which is based on money, rather than it's own and other people's wellbeing. No one gives credit to these cowards.

Samurai = powerful, honorable and long-term value committed masters, oblivious of fear.

man lol u dont know how much i disagree with you ! the ninja would finish the samurai without question, because the ninja will use any and all tools to end life whereas the majority of samurais only use the sword...

ie - TODAY ! - If a samurai met a ninja - the NINJA would pull out a Semi-Automatic and finish the battle before it began. - thats the point in essence - Ninjas - Kill, and Samurais - fight, thats why samurais are regarded as warriors and not killers whereas ninjas are regarded as assassins!

to think samurais would compete against ninjas is to have a sort of romanticised view about their art - dont get me wrong i love swordplay, - i own a beautiful sword!! but it mainly just looks good, as far as killing goes its not all that great!

believe me in real life the honourable die first and are forgotten first!

[kMal]

Originally Posted by pumpum

man lol u dont know how much i disagree with you ! the ninja would finish the samurai without question, because the ninja will use any and all tools to end life whereas the majority of samurais only use the sword...

ie - TODAY ! - If a samurai met a ninja - the NINJA would pull out a Semi-Automatic and finish the battle before it began. - thats the point in essence - Ninjas - Kill, and Samurais - fight, thats why samurais are regarded as warriors and not killers whereas ninjas are regarded as assassins!

to think samurais would compete against ninjas is to have a sort of romanticised view about their art - dont get me wrong i love swordplay, - i own a beautiful sword!! but it mainly just looks good, as far as killing goes its not all that great!

believe me in real life the honourable die first and are forgotten first!

That's the difference between me and you: I don't believe everything everyone tells me. So no, I don't believe you in this matter of discussion.

As for the post above you, of course many don't know about how things went down in ancient Japan, but to explain every single detail about Samurai would be futile. I just like Samurai more than Ninja's. I know the facts about Samurai and Ninja's.

SAMURAIII!

[pumpum]

Originally Posted by kMal

That's the difference between me and you: I don't believe everything everyone tells me. So no, I don't believe you in this matter of discussion.

and so you shouldnt! - you have your own free will to make up your own mind, when i say *believe me* its just a figure of speech, i am not literally asking you to believe me ! lol

There are probably a million differences between you and I, most notable that you Like Samurais and i Like Ninjas. however i do not listen to everything everyone tells me. far from it, i make up my own opinions based on logic.

You quoted me and said:

Originally Posted by kMal

I think when a Samurai would be challenged by a Ninja, the Ninja would be put away for good.

and i replied:

Originally Posted by pumpum

the ninja would finish the samurai without question

I didnt make that satement becasue someone told me Ninjas were badass lol, it is my opinion based on the following logic;

Samurais were warriors and therfore did battle/War/Fight

Ninjas were asassins who just Killed.

So the question is who would put the other away for good, the asassin or the warrior?? Logic tells me that if the ninja had beef with the samurai - he wouldnt go up and *challenge* him! he would just kill him, simple and logical.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Debi

That is an interesting debate.

If you don't care, I'd like to give my own insight on the topic.


About samurai.

There seems to be a lot of stereotypes and misconception about what is really a samurai.

First, samurai are an hereditary class. You don't become samurai, you are born samurai. So it mean there was all kind of samurais. That also mean there was also some very weak samurai.

The vision of the fearless and virtuous samurai who would commit seppuku after a defeat is pretty much the supreme ideal of what a samurai should be.
In fact, only a minority of samurai would be like that.

Whoever said samurai were praised is wrong. They were feared and respected because of they power and their superior social class
Of course, some were praised for their righteous virtue, but in overall they were considered as arrogants by the lower classes and not so very liked.

The Samurai code, the Bushido, was part of the samurai education. They were told all the virtues they had to follow; loyalty, honor, courage, ect.

It doesn't mean they were all following that code perfectly.
For exemple, while loyalty is the most important of the bushido virtue, there were lots of betrayal and side switching during the Warring states period.
Also, the bushido was saying that if a samurai became lordless, he should immediately commit seppuku. But after major battles where a clan was destroyed, most of the samurai who fought for that clan in fact turned Ronin.

Hara kiri was more a way to preserve oneself honor when he failed or did a mistake. In a situation where there was no other choice, a samurai would prefer to kill himself than to live in the disgrace of everyone. It was also a way to preserve the name of the family.

Of course some were more virtuous than others but in overall, the code was more like a line of conduct than established rules to follow.

Some people think that samurai were fighting only with swords.
The fact is that every samurai had to wear the 2 swords (Daisho) but they fought with a lot of different weapons in battle.
Spear, Pike, Naginata, Bo, Bow, Flail, even Musquet. And a lots more.
Of course a lot of them were fighting with their swords but not all of them.

I could say a lot more but i guess that's enough.


As for the ninja, I'll leave the topic to someone else

Jaa !

Just want to interrupt the geeky nerd fest that is happening in this thread to point out that if anyone wants to actually LEARN something this is the post to read.

Sorry... you can get back to your Otaku fantasies now about Ninja and Samurai

[Heihachirou]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Samurai didn't have morals.... that's bullshit.

Samurai followed what their lord told them to do. THAT was what they considered morals. Unquestioning loyalty.

If their lord said burn down a village they would burn it down and kill all the civilians.

You are misunderstanding. Samurai's lord is also a Samurai.

They never killed people without reasons.

Most of Samurais and Ninjas are originally civilians who armed to survive war era.

So the most strongest warriors in Japan are armed civilians.

See,
Ikkō-ikki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Heihachirou

You are misunderstanding. Samurai's lord is also a Samurai.

They never killed people without reasons.

Most of Samurais and Ninjas are originally civilians who armed to survive war era.

So the most strongest warriors in Japan are armed civilians.

See,
Ikkō-ikki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From that link...it seems to me that Ikko ikki are not Samurai.

Samurai are the warrior nobility of feudal Japan.

[Heihachirou]

I suggested the link to make you understand how strong armed civilians were.

Feudal era, like Edo period, samurais are nobility as you said.

But in War era, many civilians armed and fought to survive.

After they survived, they became samurais and Ninjas.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who unified Japan was peasant.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feudal lords were afraid of their civilians over their enemies.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was strongly afraid of civilians and taked arms away from civilians.
Sword hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After that, feudal era, samurai class became nobility.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Heihachirou

I suggested the link to make you understand how strong armed civilians were.

Feudal era, like Edo period, samurais are nobility as you said.

But in War era, many civilians armed and fought to survive.

After they survived, they became samurais and Ninjas.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who unified Japan was peasant.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feudal lords were afraid of their civilians over their enemies.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was strongly afraid of civilians and taked arms away from civilians.
Sword hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After that, feudal era, samurai class became nobility.

Huh?

First of all how is this relevant to anything? Whether or not many peasants became Samurai... Samurai are still Samurai.

In fact you seem to support my idea that in general the Samurai were oppresive and not righteous at all.

[Heihachirou]

I did not say samurai is righteous or strong.

If their lord said burn down a village they would burn it down and kill all the civilians.

They never killed people without reasons. That is all I said.

Not only morals, but also for fear.