Bullying

[Tsuwabuki]

Bullying comes in all forms, from all classes of people at all ages. I once wrote an article for a newspaper where when I described that I would go back to my small town in Texas from one of my adventures, I would then still run into and have to deal with bullies from my high school days: still there, still using bullying to make themselves feel better about their pathetic lives. I'll be in my town tomorrow, leaving on a plane soon, and I expect to run into these folks again.

Some of the worst bullying I ever encountered was from rich white kids, when I was in school, and overzealous, power hungry white officers when I was in the Navy. I, have, of course, had my share of experiences with bullies of every race. When I was in junior high, there was a vietnamese bully named Vu who used to bother me.

Got news for you, bullying doesn't stop when you get out of school, but you do learn that it becomes easier to tell people to take a hike than it seemed when you were younger.

[darksyndrem]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

No, they're not thugs. They want to pretend to be thugs because they want that to be their image, but they're not criminals. They're artists. To me, calling 50 Cent and Eminem thugs is like calling Marilyn Manson the devil. (And I've heard him be called the devil, too.) He's not ACTUALLY the devil. He just portrays a certain image as an artist. A lot of the students I've mentioned would love to call themselves thugs too - as an image. That doesn't mean they're really criminals, as you earlier suggested.

I'm sorry, but that was the dumbest example you could've thought up.....Do you know anything about 50 cent and Eminem?

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

Then in a way me saying "I disagree with your definition of bullying" is a form of bullying, because I am trying to degrade your argument, which implies you are not intelligent, so therefore degrades you.

Not at all. I don't think you're an idiot just because you don't agree with me. People can disagree without saying, "You're an idiot." Insulting another person while arguing is the only way to degrade an argument and therefore a person. "Your opinion is stupid," for example. If a person doesn't insult another, then they're not degrading anything or anything.

Disagreements become unhealthy and degrading when people feel insecure about their own points, and so use words or phrases to degrade their rival. Disagreements become unhealthy and degrading when groups of people want to strengthen their community by picking out one single person to degrade and insult.

You and I both know that it's possible to disagree while acknowledging healthily that we are both intelligent, capable human beings. We're doing it right now.

[alanX]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Bullying comes in all forms, from all classes of people at all ages.

Yes.

Everything is a bully, and everything is bullied.

If an ant bites you and you kill the ant, who was the bully in this situation?

Easy, both.

Of course this is metaphorical. But bullying applies to average everyday situations. Not just little kids picking on each other.

[JayT]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

No, they're not thugs. They want to pretend to be thugs because they want that to be their image, but they're not criminals. They're artists. To me, calling 50 Cent and Eminem thugs is like calling Marilyn Manson the devil. (And I've heard him be called the devil, too.) He's not ACTUALLY the devil. He just portrays a certain image as an artist. A lot of the students I've mentioned would love to call themselves thugs too - as an image. That doesn't mean they're really criminals, as you earlier suggested.

Yet 50 has bragged about dealing drugs in many of his songs.
Getting shot 9 times seems to be one of his selling points.
Sure some artists portray images, has that not actually happened to him?
Has he not actually done that shit, is he not influencing most of todays youth with the things he talks about?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Not at all. I don't think you're an idiot just because you don't agree with me. People can disagree without saying, "You're an idiot." Insulting another person while arguing is the only way to degrade an argument and therefore a person. "Your opinion is stupid," for example. If a person doesn't insult another, then they're not degrading anything or anything.

Disagreements become unhealthy and degrading when people feel insecure about their own points, and so use words or phrases to degrade their rival. Disagreements become unhealthy and degrading when groups of people want to strengthen their community by picking out one single person to degrade and insult.

You and I both know that it's possible to disagree while acknowledging healthily that we are both intelligent, capable human beings. We're doing it right now.

I would say using words or phrases to try and degrade a person's argument when one is already losing is a common strategy. If I decide to "attack the messenger" and say "You don't know what you are talking about because you don't have a degree" or even "that argument is stupid and you are an idiot" it is insulting, and a pathetic attempt to win the argument.

But I wouldn't call that "bullying". Now, if I was incessant and did it to every post you made or thread you started we are starting to talk about bullying or harassment.

I think bullying is more incessant and more serious. Again, I don't want to dilute the seriousness of the crime of bullying by agreeing with the idea that all insults are a form of bullying. Insults can and often are a part of what a bully does to his victim, but you and I are not in a position where there is a power struggle or scramble for a social position above or below each other. I think that factor cannot be ignored.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

I'm sorry, but that was the dumbest example you could've thought up.....Do you know anything about 50 cent and Eminem?

MMM, that is an example, however, of degrading a person's argument and thus degrading the person making the argument.

Yes, darksyndrem, I do know about 50 Cent and Eminem. I know that, when he was a child, he was a victim of poverty and was forced to deal drugs. Here's an example of how he uses the "thug" image, though. In one of his most popular songs, he says that he was shot and that he spit the bullet right back out.

No, he didn't. Not at all. He was hospitalized. He would like people to think that he is "thuggish" for spitting the bullet right back out, though. As an artist, he pulls from his past life and displays an image.

It's just an image because he isn't a thug. He has an honest career making music and entertaining people. Unless he's doing something on the side that no one knows about, 50 Cent is a musician. Not a criminal. I mean, unless you think that if a child commits a crime, they'll be a criminal for the rest of their life...

As far as I know, Eminem's never committed a crime that would warrant him the label "thug". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

MMM, that is an example, however, of degrading a person's argument and thus degrading the person making the argument.

Would you say darksyndrem is bullying you by saying that?

[alanX]

The only aspect I can agree with mercedesjin is the fact that the modern day rappers and such, particularly "50 Cent" and "Eminem" are not real "thugs."

They use an image in an attempt to gain money and popularity.
If you want to see what a real "thug" is take a walk in a downtown LA street. Where looking at someone's house will get you more than likely shot.

Slightly off-topic, but whatever.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

I would say using words or phrases to try and degrade a person's argument when one is already losing is a common strategy. If I decide to "attack the messenger" and say "You don't know what you are talking about because you don't have a degree" or even "that argument is stupid and you are an idiot" it is insulting, and a pathetic attempt to win the argument.

But I wouldn't call that "bullying". Now, if I was incessant and did it to every post you made or thread you started we are starting to talk about bullying or harassment.

I think bullying is more incessant and more serious. Again, I don't want to dilute the seriousness of the crime of bullying by agreeing with the idea that all insults are a form of bullying. Insults can and often are a part of what a bully does to his victim, but you and I are not in a position where there is a power struggle or scramble for a social position above or below each other. I think that factor cannot be ignored.

It's true that it's a pathetic attempt to win an argument. However, to me, that's all a part of the bullying. A bully will want to gain control and so will want to win the argument - even if it means calling the other person an idiot.

I personally feel that because insults are degrading, they will always be connected in some way to bullying. I do see your point a little better now, though, in part because I just started reading this article:

Gabriel: Introduction to the Social Psychology of Insults in Organizations

It's pretty long, but it's really interesting if you're curious at all. It supports both of our points.