did the u.s.have to drop the bomb?

[fluffy0000]

Your evidence is sketchy at best. Japanese codes prior to and throughout WW2 were never broken by the US. Your links and sources are in error and have been corrected by other sources in open US congressional hearings held in 1945 especially US cryptologist who testified that the US never had broken any japanese code and at best wether it was a diplomatic code or IJN 'Naval code specifically AN1 -JN 25 codes did not detail any information that supports your theory.
Again 'Lend Lease Act' was passed 9 months prior to Pearl Harbor by the US congress. The US considered Germany the #1 threat not Japan. Any US effort against Japan was considered at the time by US leader as a waste.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Seanus

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I just wanted to discuss the evidence, not be met with outright rejections. Read up on History Commons, they have plenty of data.

You werent met with complete rejections. I cant speak for anyone else but what turned me off to everything about you was your tone superiority and blatant attack on anyone who cited differences with your evidence. Like i said i have no problem discussing it but tell others they have their heads in the sand because they dont agree with you. Everything you have posted i have read many times over before this thread was open and the 3 other threads created on this very subject over the past year. I find the evidence sketchy at best thats just me. Its not what you said its how you said it.

[Seanus]

ZGram - 12/3/2002 - "The Pearl Harbor Deception", better?

Have you done more research on this than Stinnett? I doubt it. I feel for Kimmel who was disinformed.

Testimony can be doctored. Look at KSM, the A-Z mastermind of 9/11. Screeds of data were amassed on his various plotting endeavours prior to 9/11 but where was the mention of his name on 9/11 or even a year after?

Germany? Your countrymen have given me plenty on why Germany was not a serious threat. What did you envisage, the Luftwaffe flying across and wreaking havoc? America would've been ready but they didn't even have the fuel to get across. A ground assault? LOL Land Lease was designed to throw people off line, it is not centrally relevant here.

A waste? Hardly. There were interests in the Pacific that Japan was blocking. OK, Germany was the greater threat but Japan had to be dealt with due to their expansionist ambitions.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.htmlm this should be of interest to any doubters.

[fluffy0000]

Robert Stinnett, author of Day Of Deceit (New York: Simon & Schuster,) totally wrong and misinterpets US cryptoligist. No US Cryptoligist during WW2 ever broke Japanese codes either AN1-JN1 or Diplomatic code period. US cryptologist as per 1945 Congressional hearings testimony confirms that US only could 'read' a small percentage as much as 12% percent for example the JN1 Japanese Naval code under the best of circumstances.

Stinnett then goes on to assert that IJN 'Japanese Navy' broke radio silence prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor Dec.7 1941. Wrong - Stinnet quotes sources that report IJN radio transmission originating from IJN Strike Fleet just day or days from Hawaii and could be detected easily and have raised the alarm.

These sources located from ship or land based along pacific rim ie; West Coast did hear IJN 'Japanese Naval' radio transmissions except they originated from Japan. Part of Japans surprise attack was to make it appear that the Japans fleet was still in home waters and not to raise alarm.
note. Believe it or not- part of warfare includes deception and confusing your enemy.

Stinnett and others like yourself are sloppy and misinterpt facts to fit your own fantasy and your facts are nothing but sloppy research.

[bELyVIS]

Originally Posted by Barone1551

Actually I will agree and disagree with you. Im not entirely sure if everyone in Japan learns every fact or detail. I knew alot of Japanese students who didnt have a wealth of knowledge on the situation. I knew others that had alot of knowledge on the situation. It varied from student to student, now I dont know if this was due to the schools not teaching it, or the student not learning it. I also have a friend from Hiroshima who studied the bombs dropping like crazy. He had family members who died from the bombs dropping. But there were some things that even he, who did lots of studying on the subject, did not believe happened. We were watching a documentary on WWII, and the footage showed some Japanese soldiers doing some awful things. He just turned to me and said this is fake, that never happened. I was kinda shocked. He is very intelligent, and knew alot. But like you said there can be acceptions, Japan is not one person.

All countries will have their own biased form of history. Best way to learn about one country is to go to another. I'm sure Americans were taught one way about World War II and the Japanese another way. This isn't a matter of the schooling being flawed, it's just a matter of biased reporting.

[Barone1551]

Originally Posted by bELyVIS

All countries will have their own biased form of history. Best way to learn about one country is to go to another. I'm sure Americans were taught one way about World War II and the Japanese another way. This isn't a matter of the schooling being flawed, it's just a matter of biased reporting.

I agree. Well put.

[Ryzorian]

For me, and I realize they may sound strange comeing from an American who's also ex army, I consider those who died at those two citites heros. Before we have an uproar, consider this.

The expected loss of life for the American forces from the direct invasion of Japan, wich was planed to take place in 1946, was roughly 1,000,000 with Japanese losses between 3 and 5 million. These were conservitive estimates based on previous battles. However, after occupation the US planers discovered how fierce Japan's defense of thier homeland would have been. To double or even triple those estimates would not have been unreasonable.

The horrific destruction of those two cities ended the war, and prevented the loss of untold millions from both sides. There are alot of people here today, in both Japan and America, who would not be, if not for those innocent people's sacrifice.

They died saveing the lives of millions, from both sides. Isn't that the definition of the word hero?

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

They died saveing the lives of millions, from both sides. Isn't that the definition of the word hero?

Except killing a lot of Japanese civilians, including a huge number of Koreans residing in those two cities.

Firebombings of several Japanese cities were well enough to total-break down Japan's military system, ironically aimed at both military and civilian targets. I don't care if the two nukes were justified or not, both were overkill.

When I was in high school in Canada, I was shocked to hear no history teachers ever educate their students about the firebombings seriously. And my sister learned this very well in her high school in South Korea.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

They died saveing the lives of millions, from both sides. Isn't that the definition of the word hero?

Don't be so arrogant.

If anything, they're martyrs towards an anti-American cause.

Not Hero, I think the word you're looking for is victim.

[Ryzorian]

I'm well aware of the firebombing and how barbaric it was, I also know it was kept secret from the American population at the time, all they were told was that "industerial sites had been destroyed".

I do think the utter destruction that was caused by the firebombing and Abombs left a scar on both countries national phyche.

Tenchu; It was not arrogance that motivated me to use the term I did, if you misinterpeted it that way my apolgy, it wasn't my intent. I suppose you could use any term and be as acurate from some ones perspective.