did the u.s.have to drop the bomb?

[solemnclockwork]

Originally Posted by Seanus

I've only been discussing WWII in depth for the last year but I don't profess to be an expert. I'm not talking about hindsight, I'm talking about foreknowledge.

The whole point is to discuss whether dropping the bomb was the right decision, not being defensive and ducking the issue.

According to the last US investigation, Iran have been in compliance. America sponsored the IRA and Jundullah and many more terrorist organisations for years. What do you have to say to that? They want to pursue peaceful nuclear energy and the most recent reports have confirmed that they are doing everything consonant with that pursuit.

9/11 crap? History Commons is full of research, not pulled from the sky. Start arguing and debating and not being defensive. There was no link to Iraq and many have even admitted that now.

I know they defeated Russia, yes. What does Brightest Corporation mean to you? I'll give you a clue, Argentina. How about Unocal? Listen to Carl Schwarz. The war in Afghanistan is hard but the ANA provides local knowledge and guide the Allied troops. They don't want to win this war quickly and that's the point.

I agree that they saved many lives but how do you compensate those families who lost innocent loves ones? Please answer considering it was your family that was wiped out. This is my central point, the taking of innocent life.

Please don't quote me provisions of the Bible, it's insulting given how callous you were to the suffering of innocent lives after the A-bomb. True Christians will feel offended unless you condemn the loss of innocent life directly.

This thread is posted in Hindsight. We where not there to make such a decisions. They did not have the full information about what radiation can do. The whole thinking process about war was much, much different then it is today.

Well then the bomb was dropped wasn't it? What point do you get other then bashing the person who dropped it? AT the time it was decided to be the right then to do (in war). Point is there is nothing to be gained from deciding on how the past should of happen. All it does is drum up polarized sides.

Stop pulling stuff out of the magical hat you have.

The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq

Can you back that up? As I'm aware there was "alleged" that the US had supported Jundullah. Point is there is no credible source to say that the government does. Same goes for IRA there is no credible source to say the US officially supports such a group. You're in complete denial if you Thank Iran is a peaceful State.

Did you even look at the evidence I gave to contradict what you have been saying? 9/11 truthers are pulling crap out of the sky, EVEN Bill Maur tossed one out of his studio.

There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons.
NIST's Investigation of the Sept. 11 World Trade Center Disaster - Frequently Asked Questions
! Warning ! Free Thought Ahead ! : 9/11 conspiracy crap - Editorial and Opinion Miscellaneous - horror, conspiracy, lies
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics

Did you not get the part about faulty intelligence?

What are you trying to say with "Brightest Corporation, Argentina, and Unocal? Which by the way Unocal is NOT around anymore. They mean absolutely nothing to me as I cannot even find anything on them on Google. Listen to Carl Schwarz on what?

No the war in Afghan was forgotten about that is why is not being won quickly. Regardless of what help you have our tech is not going to help in the mountain region. You need actual man power to clean them out. Pakistan boarder doesn't help also.

In war people die, point and simple. In all honestly you also must point your finger at the aggressor in war if you lose people. It comes down to me or you, and I don't think a country is going to lay down and let you walk over them. Hard decisions are made in war, dropping the bomb was one of them.

It's already been said that was my signature as such don't go there for two reasons one being it's against forum rules and also you don't know what your talking about. Hint there are plenty of wars in the bible, point being they are not white washed.

qouted for the truth from Sinestra

I will not be one sided i will not pretend America is and has been saint but i refuse to sit and watch as people cant even turn their pointing fingers in ward. Iv said this before if you and or anyone else thinks they have the answers to fix whats wrong not in America not in Japan and not in Iran but with the world then get your ass in office and do something about it. No one here has ever had to make a difficult decision that decided the lives and fate of millions. So dont pretend that the leaders of old made a bad decision because you can criticize it. Im sorry Seanus that im not up for you US bashing party but i would rather focus on how to fix current problems then to dwell over something that has happened and cant be changed neither of us were born yet so in return i would not hold a Japanese person born after WWII responsible for Pearl Harbor it ludicrous.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

I see it as a very good idea because it will reorganize the South Korean government to a better transparent government.

So it's America's fault that South Korea lacks transperancy? That sounds absurd.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

At least the Chinese parliament, despite being a single party, is more functional. South Korea often lock the parliament to pass laws and policies after that idiotic corrupted pro-American president came into power.

You're talking about one administration. And I think we have different ideas as to what is functional.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Your perspective is laughably limited. Go read some South Korean articles.

Oh FFS... My point was that you seem to have isolated a particular issue when there are much broader things to take into account. It's kind of like the way Americans say Japan started World War 2 as though nothing before that mattered.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Rummy's North Korea Connection What did Donald Rumsfeld know about ABB's deal to build nuclear reactors there? And why won't he talk about it? - May 12, 2003

Oh you're talking reactors.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

And Japan has a single dominant party system for how long? Checks and Balances system doesn't guarantee when it is a single dominant party system like Japan and indirectly South Korea. South Korea's case is wee bit different.

I think you haven't understood what I've said. The checks and balances being the mechanisms in which Japanese people are able to have a say in things including the legal system. As I see it in China... people have very little say if at all.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

See South Korea today. Do you think it really works? Democracy IS the worst political form for Asia because of our culture.

My point was that it works better than Burma, better than China, better than Vietnam.. all authoritarian regimes and I justify that by pointing to the living standards and economic prosperity these countries have. China's new found wealth is due to liberalisation of Chinese society. Liberalisation which the Chinese government is actually catiuous of despite recognising the necessity of it.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Only applies to West that superimposes its culture and thinking to other non-Western countries.

Ideas don't have nationalities. Not all Asians would agree with you that Democracy has no place in Asia. In fact

Originally Posted by komitsuki

And that's true because confucianism has primarily a meritocratic kernel. And democracy is poorly a meritocratic system.

Aside from the fact that the point you're trying to make doesn't address mine.... Meritocratic? Who decides what merit is? Democracy is more meritocratic because merit is decided by the people's interests.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

This is why I limited to Asia (more specifically East Asia). I don't think that is a problem.

I drew parallels with other regions because your argument is exactly the same. Or don't you think the Middle East and Africa have cultures?

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Of course. This is why East Asia should never become democratic. I call it meritocracy.

Confucian political value =/= authoritarian.

Again... you make the mistake of thinking that merit is something that is decided from above. You know Robert Mugabe makes a similar argument.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Only applied to the West. You see, I never criticize the West having democracy. Don't twist my words.

No I'm well aware of what you're saying. I've heard similar arguments before. I've also heard counter arguments to that too.. and guess where the counter arguments came from? They came from Asia. Former SK President Lee writes a good essay on why the argument that democracy can't work in Asia is erroneous.

[bELyVIS]

I get the feeling that there isn't much to do in Poland except post on here.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

So it's America's fault that South Korea lacks transperancy? That sounds absurd.

But yes. It's because of the American government. The Law of Persecuting Collaborators for the Japanese Empire before the Korean War was disbanded under the orders by the American government (which is the military government in Seoul) to South Korea. Today's mainstream South Korean politicians are almost all of the pro-Japanese Korean descendants who were bailed out by the American government before the Korean War. Still today, worshiping America blindly because America is the overgenerous patron who corrupted them more than before.

Edit: fixed... tricky Korean translation and added more comments.

You're talking about one administration. And I think we have different ideas as to what is functional.

BTW, it's more than one administration. It's an ironic South Korean tradition. Let's also include the undemocratic dictatorship of Park Chung-hee approved by the American government.

Oh FFS... My point was that you seem to have isolated a particular issue when there are much broader things to take into account. It's kind of like the way Americans say Japan started World War 2 as though nothing before that mattered.

FFS? Ad hominem? Not worth discussing.

Oh you're talking reactors.

And North Korea got its final phase of nuclear technologies from researching those reactors handed by the American government.

I think you haven't understood what I've said. The checks and balances being the mechanisms in which Japanese people are able to have a say in things including the legal system. As I see it in China... people have very little say if at all.

And you said that Because generally speaking I'm under the impression that the average Japanese citizen is far removed from politics at the national level. Or is my impression the one that needs changing? in your previous post and MMM said Unfortunately, I think your perception is the reality. It is too bad the Japanese people aren't more politically active.

http://www.japanforum.com/forum/japa...he-resign.html

China's new found wealth is due to liberalisation of Chinese society.

But it is still Socialism with Chinese Characteristics... in reality it is another form of authoritarian.

Ideas don't have nationalities.

But ideas do have culture based on its society.

Aside from the fact that the point you're trying to make doesn't address mine.... Meritocratic? Who decides what merit is? Democracy is more meritocratic because merit is decided by the people's interests.

But too bad that democracy is based on liberal market economy. I never think democracy is based on meritocratic.

I drew parallels with other regions because your argument is exactly the same.

No, this is why I explained the situation I know the most, East Asia.

Or don't you think the Middle East and Africa have cultures?

Ad hominem? Ouch.

Again... you make the mistake of thinking that merit is something that is decided from above.

Confucianism doesn't work only in one way. Like 三綱五倫.

You know Robert Mugabe makes a similar argument.

I told you, I reduced to the situations in East Asia.

No I'm well aware of what you're saying. I've heard similar arguments before. I've also heard counter arguments to that too.. and guess where the counter arguments came from? They came from Asia.

Funny. I heard many similar Asian anti-democratic arguments by Westerners who are very familiar with Asian politics and once lived there for several years.

Former SK President Lee writes a good essay on why the argument that democracy can't work in Asia is erroneous.

You mean the former Rhee Syngman? There is only one former South Korean president that had a last name of Lee (or Rhee) and he was an undemocratic bastard later on. You know he got kicked out of South Korea and moved to Hawaii because of the massive undemocratic corruptions. How hypocritical. I laughed, Ronin, I laughed so hard.

[Sinestra]

Im noticing a trend here.Whenever there is discussion of this type here its always the same postes on 2 different sides and those who flee for fear of getting caught up in it.

solemnclockwork I agree with you on many of your statements im not going to dwell on a past that i can not change i would rather work towards a prosperous future for all nations even if i dont see it in my lifetime.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

But yes. It's because of the American government. The Committee of Persecuting Collaborators for the Japanese Empire before the Korean War was disbanded under the orders by the American government to South Korea. Today's mainstream South Korean politicians are almost all of the descendants from the people who were bailed out by the American government before the Korean War.

I'm still not seeing the connection. And this is why South Korean government today is not transparent? (Or as transparent as you would like it)

Originally Posted by komitsuki

BTW, it's more than one administration. It's an ironic South Korean tradition. Let's also include the undemocratic dictatorship of Park Chung-hee approved by the American government.

OK fine.. but the original point was that South Korean Democracy was not functional remember? No democracy is perfect.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

FFS? Ad hominem? Not worth discussing.

No... simply an expression of my impatience with you. And why is it not worth discussing? Because I'm right? Because I exposed your inability to take into account the bigger picture?

Originally Posted by komitsuki

And North Korea got its final phase of nuclear technologies from researching those reactors handed by the American government.

Yes I'm aware of the various agreements between America and NK. I originally thought you were talking warheads.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

And you said that Because generally speaking I'm under the impression that the average Japanese citizen is far removed from politics at the national level. Or is my impression the one that needs changing? in your previous post and MMM said Unfortunately, I think your perception is the reality. It is too bad the Japanese people aren't more politically active.

http://www.japanforum.com/forum/japa...he-resign.html

Lack of participation or interest in politics in Japan does not mean that democracy is lacking or that the alternative to democracy is desirable. Way to jump to conclusions. Oh by the way... I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.. but how do you think Japan's incompetent government is going to change? What's that??? democratically I hear you say? Yeah I thought so. You seem to be taking the group harmony aspect of Asian society as grounds to justifying authoritarianism.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

But it is still Socialism with Chinese Characteristics... in reality it is another form of authoritarian.

However you want to describe it... the trend is towards liberalisation which also includes a trend towards democratisation. That's what I was pointing out.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

But ideas do have culture based on its society.

I'm suprised that this is your argument considering you claim merit to be so important to you. Ideas succeed or fail based on their merit. I'm familiar with the perception you hold but I think it is erroneous. The rejection of an idea because it is deemed non-traditional goes against modern rationalist thought.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

But too bad that democracy is based on liberal market economy. I never think democracy is based on meritocratic.

You're missing the point. You don't decide what has merit or what doesn't. Merit is what works. In a democracy the one with merit is the one who people believe has it the most.. whether it turns out that this is true or not depends... but the fact is that governments who run on political platforms which turn out to lack merit get voted out. Therefore I think it is safe to say that democracy is the system of government which can be described as meritocratic.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

No, this is why I explained the situation I know the most, East Asia.

I see.. So you know nothing about the other continents. Well let me tell you this. This trend of justifying oppresion on the basis of culture happens the world over.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Ad hominem? Ouch.

Maybe... but it was a valid question at the same time. I now know you're tactic when you want to retreat from a discussion without looking like a tard.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

Funny. I heard many similar Asian anti-democratic arguments by Westerners who are very familiar with Asian politics and once lived there for several years.

Yeah but the very fact that Asian scholars can recognise the advantages of democratic systems of government works in my favour as it shows that the idea that Asia is incompatible with democracy is hardly a fact.

Originally Posted by komitsuki

You mean the former Rhee Syngman? There is only one former South Korean president that had a last name of Lee (or Rhee) and he was an undemocratic bastard later on. You know he got kicked out of South Korea and moved to Hawaii because of the massive undemocratic corruptions. How hypocritical. I laughed, Ronin, I laughed so hard.

Laugh it up... I got a name wrong big deal.. and maybe I'm confusing names but it was an essay in response to former Singaporean president Lee Kuan Sew's famous assertion that Asia was incompatible with democracy.

BTW... Could you please not pick apart this any more than it is already. It's troublesome having to seperate quotes out. I'm more than able to read paragraphs and to connect which of your counterpoints correspond to my points.

[komitsuki]

I see no points of keep discussing as we totally have very bipolar opinions.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

but how do you think Japan's incompetent government is going to change? What's that??? democratically I hear you say? Yeah I thought so. You seem to be taking the group harmony aspect of Asian society as grounds to justifying authoritarianism.

You know, you could get my point easily without generating more red herring.

Because I exposed your inability to take into account the bigger picture?

No, because you don't have the patience to look into the non-western side of the world with a non-western perspective.

I now know you're tactic when you want to retreat from a discussion without looking like a tard.

A tard? Another ad hominem. Man, do you really have to insult someone to present your points? Try not to degrade yourself for a change.

I see no reasons to keep this debate because of some New Zealander keeps insulting. No wonder a lot of people avoid you here in this forum.

Anyway to answer your comment: not really. You know we have this same or similar discussions over and over again, right? It seems that you keep insisting that you can only think in one way like a Borg from Star Trek. I try to diversify my opinion because I already know that my beliefs and opinions are very unpopular (hence I said, "You see, I never criticize the West having democracy") but still maintain my core opinion.

But hey, I can see your epic intolerance of my opinion that you really have to insult someone. Even before this discussion with you, I said to myself "this will not end well because we already have this massive difference of opinion in the first place".

What's the point of you arguing with me several times when you already know the outcome? Do you want to keep doing this again and again, so I can have the justifications to say you are a fool to others and the rest of my Chinese buddies?

In your perspective, don't you see the Hegelian notions in our discussions (remember what we discussed about this last time)?

As a Korean, I would say semi-comically: 지랄하네~

[Seanus]

ABC News Exclusive: The Secret War Against Iran - The Blotter, this is one of many sources on Jundullah ties.

On the Iranian issue, if you read the press you will encounter the same old drivel that has been written for years. Namely, paranoid concerns and unsubstantiated allegations. Read the scientific research, however, and a different picture emerges. Compliance in almost every area. Informed Comment: IAEA Inspectors: Iran not Producing Weapons-grade Uranium, one of many many.

9/11 Truthers simply aren't heard most of the time. They are either cut off or turned away. I could give you a video which clearly shows explosions throughout the WTC. Who was in charge of WTC security/access? Marvin Bush

Brightest Corp wanted the pipeline deal but they got tied up in the US courts for years. That left only the Taliban to sweep aside. Unocal has been wound up but Karzai was a consultant and look where he is now.

The war was forgotten about?? So why did Obama send so many more troops in? The problem is there is an insufficient commitment to getting them the proper equipment that they need. It is a major issue for Obama and has been for some time.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

I see no points of keep discussing as we totally have very bipolar opinions.



You know, you could get my point easily without generating more red herring.



No, because you don't have the patience to look into the non-western side of the world with a non-western perspective.



A tard? Another ad hominem. Man, do you really have to insult someone to present your points? Try not to degrade yourself for a change.

I see no reasons to keep this debate because of some New Zealander keeps insulting. No wonder a lot of people avoid you here in this forum.

Anyway to answer your comment: not really. You know we have this same or similar discussions over and over again, right? It seems that you keep insisting that you can only think in one way like a Borg from Star Trek. I try to diversify my opinion because I already know that my beliefs and opinions are very unpopular (hence I said, "You see, I never criticize the West having democracy") but still maintain my core opinion.

But hey, I can see your epic intolerance of my opinion that you really have to insult someone. Even before this discussion with you, I said to myself "this will not end well because we already have this massive difference of opinion in the first place".

What's the point of you arguing with me several times when you already know the outcome? Do you want to keep doing this again and again, so I can have the justifications to say you are a fool to others and the rest of my Chinese buddies?

In your perspective, don't you see the Hegelian notions in our discussions (remember what we discussed about this last time)?

As a Korean, I would say semi-comically: 지랄하네~

Why are you blaming me for this discussion? This went from being about American influence in Asia to YOU making the same talking points that you made when the discussion was about North and South Korea. (Asia is not ready for democracy yada yada yada...)

The only thing I'm guilty of is being sucked into and continuing this discussion.

I mean you're the one that brought up the culture element.

I would've preffered to have kept the discussion at a purely rational level.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Why are you blaming me for this discussion?

See for yourself.

The only thing I'm guilty of is being sucked into and continuing this discussion.

I mean you're the one that brought up the culture element.

And you're the one who replied to me first.

I would've preffered to have kept the discussion at a purely rational level.

Rational? You mean how you said I'm a tard and becoming very impatient?