"The Cove" discussion

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

What are we blaming Australia for? I don't quite understand what you're getting at.
Hunting a wild animal is not wrong provided that the animal is hunted ethically and with regard for the ecosystem. Whale's were close to extinct before and the fear is that hunting whale could make them close to extinct again.

Ethically? What is the very ethical hunting? Please explain it.
I said that breeding animals for food may be more ugly than hunting because they deprive animal's freedom from the birth.

Some kind of whales are increasing enough to be hunted.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The IWC ruling on commercial whaling is the very international consensus I was talking about.

Japan have held by IWC ruling. Some people blame excessively.
I do not agree to IWC ruling. I want Japan to leave IWC as well as Canada.
International Whaling Commission have forgotten its identity.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Call it what you want. (I'd call it democratic) But that's just the way the world works. The only way Japan could persuade the rest of the international community to reconsider is via a reasoned appeal to convince other IWC members to overturn the ban. Even in Japan, the whaling ban is only controversial to Japanese nationalists and conservatives. This issue is not about the world telling Japan what to do. It's about the world taking a vote and the majority of the international community outlawed whaling on the open seas.

Decision by a majority is no more than a way of achievement for democracy.
Freedom of each country must be maintain unless violate the rights of other countries.
Some kind of whale is not under extinction fear, the right of whaling countries must be esteemed.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

No because allowing Japan to hunt whale would mean allowing other countries to whale. Furthermore, whatever controls Japan or other countries put in place are not guaruntees that they will be observed. After all, when money is involved, corporations look to cut corners and look for loopholes (just like the how they exploit the loophole in the IWC ruling that allows for "scientific whaling"). That is not a risk that the international community is willing to take.

IWC can control all amount of whaling by the IWC member.
There is no reason for banning in a single uniform way

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Whatever the reasons. It's irrelevant. The point is that in the West something was done.

From eyes Japanese, this seems opportunism by western people.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

Ethically? What is the very ethical hunting? Please explain it.
I said that breeding animals for food may be more ugly than hunting because they deprive animal's freedom from the birth.

Factory farming I agree is quite brutal also and I hope that it may become outlawed. However that is another issue entirely.

As for ethical hunting... hunting with the wellbeing of the eco-system in mind is ethical at the very least.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Some kind of whales are increasing enough to be hunted.

Certainly sustained hunting can take place. Commercial hunting is a different matter though.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Japan have held by IWC ruling. Some people blame excessively.
I do not agree to IWC ruling. I want Japan to leave IWC as well as Canada.
International Whaling Commission have forgotten its identity.

Canada has already left the IWC... but maintains a ban on commercial whaling.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Decision by a majority is no more than a way of achievement for democracy.
Freedom of each country must be maintain unless violate the rights of other countries.
Some kind of whale is not under extinction fear, the right of whaling countries must be esteemed.

First of all, countries do not have rights other than those set out by the UN charter.

Considering that Japan does not own the pacific ocean, and considering the ocean is a valuable resource for all countries in East Asia, the pacific and the Americas, then if Japan acts against this consensus by hunting whales Japan is violating the "rights" of other countries who utilise the ocean.

Originally Posted by minminRW

IWC can control all amount of whaling by the IWC member.
There is no reason for banning in a single uniform way

That's a huge assumption.

The very reason for banning in a single uniform way is because there are too many potential risks to the eco system. Also we can't trust the private sector and considering whaling activity is likely to increase if commercial whale hunting were allowed, the cost of monitoring Japanese whaling operations would also increase.

Originally Posted by minminRW

From eyes Japanese, this seems opportunism by western people.

Speak for yourself. It's only the perspective of Japanese conservatives and nationalists. In fact oppurtunism is what the small but powerful Japanese whaling lobby is doing by trying to envoke nationalist sentiments in the Japanese population with regard to this issue.

Let's keep this discussion rational.

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by minminRW

The way of living of Japanese people must be decided by Japanese people.

Aussie are killing many Kangaloos. Are not Kangaloos wild animal?
Western People are Killing barn animals over twice amount of that of Japanese per capita . Is it OK because they are not wild? I do not think so.
Breeding animal for killing may be more ugly than hunting because animals except human do not breed other animals for their food.

It depends on variety of culture. Other people must not blame.

I felt that your post should have been in the "Chinglish" thread for a sec.

It's Kangaroo not loo.


Japan NEEDS to change it's ways and fall into line with it's international "friends" before they all dump it.

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Factory farming I agree is quite brutal also and I hope that it may become outlawed. However that is another issue entirely.
As for ethical hunting... hunting with the wellbeing of the eco-system in mind is ethical at the very least.

Your explanation is not clear enough. I think whaling by Japan fits with wellbeing of the eco-system.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Certainly sustained hunting can take place. Commercial hunting is a different matter though.
Canada has already left the IWC... but maintains a ban on commercial whaling.

It is not the matter whether a certain whaling is Commercial or not.

USA hunts Bowhead Whales (classified "Endangered" by red list) as non-commercial whaling every year.(IWC allowed it!)
Japan hunts whales as research but these are classified "Least concern".

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

First of all, countries do not have rights other than those set out by the UN charter.
Considering that Japan does not own the pacific ocean, and considering the ocean is a valuable resource for all countries in East Asia, the pacific and the Americas, then if Japan acts against this consensus by hunting whales Japan is violating the "rights" of other countries who utilise the ocean.

First, Japan does not act against World consensus but just stay minor.
Almost countries do not have culture of eating whales.
Japanese whaling do not violate the rights of these countries.
Though, I agree to your viewpoint taking whales as "resources".

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

That's a huge assumption.
The very reason for banning in a single uniform way is because there are too many potential risks to the eco system. Also we can't trust the private sector and considering whaling activity is likely to increase if commercial whale hunting were allowed, the cost of monitoring Japanese whaling operations would also increase.

We have not discussed about monitoring costs...it may not be a big problem.
Anyway, whaling must be controlled and we can do.
It is easier than that of CO2.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Speak for yourself. It's only the perspective of Japanese conservatives and nationalists. In fact oppurtunism is what the small but powerful Japanese whaling lobby is doing by trying to envoke nationalist sentiments in the Japanese population with regard to this issue.

Speak for yourself, Natural activists have got huge donation from financial establishments of USA and Australia. They include some group of lobbyist that wants to take chance of increasing meat export to Japan with blaming whale hunting.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Let's keep this discussion rational.

Likewise.

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by ozkai

I felt that your post should have been in the "Chinglish" thread for a sec.

It's Kangaroo not loo.


Japan NEEDS to change it's ways and fall into line with it's international "friends" before they all dump it.

Sorry for my poor English.

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by minminRW

It is not the matter whether a certain whaling is Commercial or not.

USA hunts Bowhead Whales (classified "Endangered" by red list) as non-commercial whaling every year.(IWC allowed it!)
Japan hunts whales as research but these are classified "Least concern".

.

I did not know that.

That's a shock that the IWC allowed it.

[Ryzorian]

I think I'm on MinMinRW's side here, just something about his argument that speaks to me.

By the way MinminRW...don't worry about the English, I'm American and I can't spell it worth a darn, can't speak it that well either considering how often my general bluntness gets me in trouble at work. The way I see it, if the other folks understood what you ment, it was spelled correctly.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

Your explanation is not clear enough. I think whaling by Japan fits with wellbeing of the eco-system.

Only because it is severely restricted currently.

Originally Posted by minminRW

It is not the matter whether a certain whaling is Commercial or not.

USA hunts Bowhead Whales (classified "Endangered" by red list) as non-commercial whaling every year.(IWC allowed it!)
Japan hunts whales as research but these are classified "Least concern".

Japan doesn't hunt for research. Japan says that it hunts for research and then sells the meat commercially. The United States does not hunt Bowhead whales. It simply allows Inuit people to hunt them in US waters via traditional means.

Originally Posted by minminRW

First, Japan does not act against World consensus but just stay minor.
Almost countries do not have culture of eating whales.
Japanese whaling do not violate the rights of these countries.
Though, I agree to your viewpoint taking whales as "resources".

The ocean as a whole is an eco system and any act which may endanger it is a concern for all countries who consider the ocean a valuable asset or worth defending.

And the culture argument is not valid. Japanese can hunt whale in their own territorial waters. Just stay off the ocean.

Originally Posted by minminRW

We have not discussed about monitoring costs...it may not be a big problem.
Anyway, whaling must be controlled and we can do.
It is easier than that of CO2.

We can't trust the Japanese to moniter themselves because of the whale hunting lobbyists. Whaling can't be controlled because private corporation can't be trusted.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Speak for yourself, Natural activists have got huge donation from financial establishments of USA and Australia. They include some group of lobbyist that wants to take chance of increasing meat export to Japan with blaming whale hunting.

I am speaking for myself. You're the one trying to make this a case of Japan versus the West (which is a typical Japanese nationalist perspective.. and something that didn't work out for you guys). Where in fact it's simply whale hunting versus non-whale hunting.

When I ask you to keep things rational, I'm asking you to keep things within the parameters of whale-hunting.

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Only because it is severely restricted currently.

It also means Japan hold by restriction.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Japan doesn't hunt for research. Japan says that it hunts for research and then sells the meat commercially. The United States does not hunt Bowhead whales. It simply allows Inuit people to hunt them in US waters via traditional means.

Inuit people are US citizens.
Traditional means? Japan have had tradition of eating whale for over 1000 yrs.
Bowhead whale is subject to danger. Minke whale is increasing.
This is the fact.
You are saying as if Commercial is evil, but we are living in free commercial world. Are you communist?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The ocean as a whole is an eco system and any act which may endanger it is a concern for all countries who consider the ocean a valuable asset or worth defending.

And the culture argument is not valid. Japanese can hunt whale in their own territorial waters. Just stay off the ocean.

Again, Japan do not act against world consensus.
Research whaling is under control of Japanese gov. and IWC.
And Japanese whaling do not hurt the asset instead of that of US.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

We can't trust the Japanese to moniter themselves because of the whale hunting lobbyists. Whaling can't be controlled because private corporation can't be trusted.

Your explanation is not fair.
You are saying you can not trust Japan or Japanese people.
I feel sad.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I am speaking for myself. You're the one trying to make this a case of Japan versus the West (which is a typical Japanese nationalist perspective.. and something that didn't work out for you guys). Where in fact it's simply whale hunting versus non-whale hunting.

Western people now ruling the world. They are blaming Japanese whaling with no logical reason. You're the real one trying to make this a case of Japan versus the West
If you refer to people supporting whaling as Lobbyist or Nationalist, I must say you are racist.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

When I ask you to keep things rational, I'm asking you to keep things within the parameters of whale-hunting.

I only answer you. If the discussion is out of certain truck, the reason is your question.

[ozkai]

I LOVE these whale debates

I think Japan should stop whaling as they are beautiful intelligent creatures and the harpooning is so bloody barbarixc and cruel, not to mention the dolphin round up ultimate stabbing of hundreds at Taiji.

The fact is, these debates never get anywhere and Japan and the West simply do not seem to garee to want to udnerstand each other.

Like Ronin said, it is only the natives who are allowed to hunt. We are the same in Oz with Aboriginies allowed to hunt endangered species as it is their native food.