"The Cove" discussion

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

It also means Japan hold by restriction.

All countries have an obligation to each other.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Inuit people are US citizens.
Traditional means? Japan have had tradition of eating whale for over 1000 yrs.
Bowhead whale is subject to danger. Minke whale is increasing.
This is the fact.
You are saying as if Commercial is evil, but we are living in free commercial world. Are you communist?

If Japanese want to hunt whale traditionally in the same way Inuit people do they should do so in their own territorial waters where they can do whatever they like is what I'm saying. And no I'm not a communist. But I'm aware that when commercial interests and the wellbeing of the environment are at odds, commercial interest often wins out.

I find the tradition argument a bit stupid to be honest. I mean for the Inuit people, whaling is a necessity. Japan is a modern country so it's not really a necessity. Furthermore if Japan was really concerned about tradition it should hunt traditionally. Somehow I don't think they used grenade tipped harpoons and floating factories 1000 years ago.

And I'm aware Inuit people are Americans (Well the ones in Alaska anyway.. The Inuit in Canada are obviously Canadian... and the Inuit in Greenland are Danish)

Originally Posted by minminRW

Again, Japan do not act against world consensus.
Research whaling is under control of Japanese gov. and IWC.
And Japanese whaling do not hurt the asset instead of that of US.

I know they don't. But they're exploiting a loophole in the ruling of the consensus. What happens if commercial whale hunting is allowed, but profits are threatened? You can bet that the whalers will be willing to exploit loopholes in whatever system is set up.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Your explanation is not fair.
You are saying you can not trust Japan or Japanese people.
I feel sad.

You misunderstand.. I don't trust the Japanese to hunt whale ethically BECAUSE of the whale lobbyists. I also don't trust the Americans to broker a peace agreement in Israel BECAUSE of Jewish lobbyists.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Western people now ruling the world. They are blaming Japanese whaling with no logical reason. You're the real one trying to make this a case of Japan versus the West
If you refer to people supporting whaling as Lobbyist or Nationalist, I must say you are racist.

Western people are ruling the world? Japan is a modern country with the second largest economy in the world and a military (which they call "self defence force" ) which is technologically superior to the United Kingdom.

If the West is ruling the world.. then Japan is a Western country.

Anyway, you're the one who brought it up first. I'm willing to drop this line of discussion if you are.

Originally Posted by minminRW

I only answer you. If the discussion is out of certain truck, the reason is your question.

Whatever.. let's agree to keep this discussion between rational whaling versus anti whaling arguments and keep national sentiments out of it.

[minminRW]

Ozkai,
Whales are intelligent as well as cows, pigs or kangaroos.

Ronin4hire,
Anti-whaling countries are very ones exploiting a loophole.
IWC was set in order to enforce international agreement "International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling", that aims beneficial use of whale resources.
This agreement is not for natural conservation, and IWC is not a committee of natural conservation.
Anti-whaling countries must leave IWC but they stay and hinder logical discussion.
I quote one article from "Hiraganatimes".
--
The IWC's scientific committee said that there was no problem in resuming commercial whaling within a catch quota of several thousand minke whales per year.
But the IWC paid no attention to this scientific evidence and rejected the request to resume whaling.
In 1993, the chairman of the scientific committee resigned saying, "I can't remain in this organization because they neglected the management scheme to which we have spent our precious time."
--

These facts mean Anti-whaling is neither scientific nor world consensus.

Japan is not western country, one special exception that stay in advanced countries in the world under western hegemony.
(I can refer many example about it but don't.)

You call pro-whaling people "Lobbyist", then I call anti-whaling people "Lobbyist".
I cannot trust anti-whaling "Lobbyist".

[minminRW]

About "Traditional Whaling"

"Traditional" is confusional word.
I think science or industry also parts of tradition.
There is no borderline.

As for USA, "Traditional Whaling" is killing endangered Bowhead Whale.
Because US gov. force inuit to do "Traditional Whaling".
If they can use advanced equipment they can hunt Minke whale instead of Bowhead.

Selfish excuse of USA is breaking eco-system.

[Ryzorian]

Honestly, what is the big deal about whales? The Japanese like to eat em..so what? If they want to hunt whales in the middle of the ocean, so? Lot's of American fishing ships fish all over too, nobody raises any stink about that.

Japan gets a large amount of it's food from the sea, that's just how it is. Whales provide alot of food for the effort, makes logical sense to hunt them. No one has proven yet that whales are any more sentinent than monkeys, and people eat those too. I suppose Japan could try to have whale farms. I wonder how practical that would be?

Allthough MinMinRW, I realize Japan is Japan and it likes to keep a self identity. However, I would say it's probably more "western" in it's thought process than any other asian country and has been for a while. Some of that could be attributed to WW2 and the aftermath/occupation. Some of it was on purpose from before WW2, when the Japanese government tried to at least immulate certain "western" military aspects. This in turn lead to immulated buisiness aspects during the 50's-70's.

I think modern Japan is something of a blend of Eastern and Western ideals, perhaps 70% Eastern and 30% Western, give or take a few %. It's that blending wich has made it unique as an Asian nation. That doesn't mean anything good or bad, it just describes things as I suspect they are. Though I do think sometimes Japan tends to be self concious of this blend, perhaps even embaressed by it.

Sorry, got sidetracked from whales there.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

Ozkai,
Whales are intelligent as well as cows, pigs or kangaroos.

Actually whales, dolphins, primates and humans are the among the few species in the world that show signs of self-consciousness (i.e. aware of their existence)

Originally Posted by minminRW

Ronin4hire,
Anti-whaling countries are very ones exploiting a loophole.
IWC was set in order to enforce international agreement "International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling", that aims beneficial use of whale resources.
This agreement is not for natural conservation, and IWC is not a committee of natural conservation.
Anti-whaling countries must leave IWC but they stay and hinder logical discussion.
I quote one article from "Hiraganatimes".
--
The IWC's scientific committee said that there was no problem in resuming commercial whaling within a catch quota of several thousand minke whales per year.
But the IWC paid no attention to this scientific evidence and rejected the request to resume whaling.
In 1993, the chairman of the scientific committee resigned saying, "I can't remain in this organization because they neglected the management scheme to which we have spent our precious time."

Whatever the original mission of the IWC... It's the only forum with which any consensus on the issue can be made.

Japan can leave.. but it won't because it doesn't want this issue to escalate. The United States is on the side of anti-whaling after all so any attempt to defy this consensus on the part of the Japanese will only get the Americans against you.

Originally Posted by minminRW

These facts mean Anti-whaling is neither scientific nor world consensus.

You're not listening... I don't trust Japan to adhere to any sort of quota system (because of whaling lobby groups). I agree whale hunting can be done sustainably.. (I don't think it can be done economically.. and nor do many Japanese politicians)

Rethinking Japan's whaling practices - upiasia.com

"After broadly considering the national interest, Japan should drop its ocean-going research whaling,” wrote Taniguchi in the February edition of Wedge magazine. “Instead, it should revive its deficit-ridden coastal whaling and find a way to keep the sales channels and food culture of eating whale meat."

Originally Posted by minminRW

Japan is not western country, one special exception that stay in advanced countries in the world under western hegemony.
(I can refer many example about it but don't.)

You call pro-whaling people "Lobbyist", then I call anti-whaling people "Lobbyist".
I cannot trust anti-whaling "Lobbyist".

I agree Japan is not a Western country... but it is part of the "Political North". (A term used to describe the system of powerful industrialised countries).

In fact Japan is a closer ally to the United States than many other Western countries including my country which is culturally Western (New Zealand). So please stop with this lie about "Western hegemony". (It's American hegemony)

You can call us what you like. We have the interest of the environment on our side. Your side just wants to make money.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

About "Traditional Whaling"

"Traditional" is confusional word.
I think science or industry also parts of tradition.
There is no borderline.

There is no borderline because the concept of culture or tradition is not based on rationality. Therefore it is not a valid argument in a rational discussion. I expected better from a modern country like Japan.

It's like saying that beating women in Muslim societies is traditionally acceptable in many Islamic societies so we should allow Muslim immigrants to beat their wives.

Originally Posted by minminRW

As for USA, "Traditional Whaling" is killing endangered Bowhead Whale.
Because US gov. force inuit to do "Traditional Whaling".
If they can use advanced equipment they can hunt Minke whale instead of Bowhead.

Selfish excuse of USA is breaking eco-system.

The hunting of bowhead whales via traditional means in US waters only is sustainable. And it's NOT for commercial use.

[minminRW]

Ronin4hire,
You are using too many excuse such as "whatever","after all"or"it is not a valid argument" to continue logical discussion.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Actually whales, dolphins, primates and humans are the among the few species in the world that show signs of self-consciousness (i.e. aware of their existence)

You have not proved anything. Almost all mammal may have self-consciousness.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Whatever the original mission of the IWC... It's the only forum with which any consensus on the issue can be made.

No there are many committee or agreement for natural conservation. (UNEP, UNCLOS, ITLOS, etc. )
This fact prove "Exploiting a loophole" of Anti-whaling country.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Japan can leave.. but it won't because it doesn't want this issue to escalate. The United States is on the side of anti-whaling after all so any attempt to defy this consensus on the part of the Japanese will only get the Americans against you.

I said Anti-whaling country must leave.
You are just saying that Japan is under American hegemony.(I agree to it.)

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You're not listening... I don't trust Japan to adhere to any sort of quota system (because of whaling lobby groups). I agree whale hunting can be done sustainably.. (I don't think it can be done economically.. and nor do many Japanese politicians)

Japan needs whale meat sustainably, you do not need to worry about.

>(because of whaling lobby groups).
You are saying Japanese people are brutal and anti-democracy, Are you all right?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Rethinking Japan's whaling practices - upiasia.com

"After broadly considering the national interest, Japan should drop its ocean-going research whaling,” wrote Taniguchi in the February edition of Wedge magazine. “Instead, it should revive its deficit-ridden coastal whaling and find a way to keep the sales channels and food culture of eating whale meat."

Again, this means Japan is under American hegemony.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You can call us what you like. We have the interest of the environment on our side. Your side just wants to make money.

I have found you are racist because you take Japanese as "Economic animal".

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

There is no borderline because the concept of culture or tradition is not based on rationality. Therefore it is not a valid argument in a rational discussion. I expected better from a modern country like Japan.

It's like saying that beating women in Muslim societies is traditionally acceptable in many Islamic societies so we should allow Muslim immigrants to beat their wives.


The hunting of bowhead whales via traditional means in US waters only is sustainable. And it's NOT for commercial use.

>via traditional means
This is bloodier way than advanced whaling.

You have not proved that bowhead whales are safe.
They might exist only under 10,000. USA hunts them over 50 every year.
Is it safe? I do not think so.

As for Islamic society.
Your opinion indicates typical behavior of western people. That is dogmatic, self-righteous, and pragmatic.
You can give them some suggestion, but you must not force them to hold by your opinion.
Immigrants live in your territory, we are discussing on Japanese territory and international sea.

[minminRW]

Ryzorian,
Thanks for your suggestion.
But I do not think that breeding is more ethical than hunting.

[kMal]

We are fucking up this world so badly man..
Every little change will fuck up the balance our precious world once had.
Think about the butterfly effect. The effects of our commercialistic, imperialistic, capitalistic, consumer oriented behaviour will (in my opinion) be visible but FAR too late. Think about it. We have been started fucking up this world on a mass scale since the 18th century. A few hundred years ARE NOTHING compared to the age of this precious diamond called Earth. We have changed our planet irreversibly within only a few hundred years man! DAMN!