Japan confirms secret war protocol

[WhoIsDaffy]

Originally Posted by MMM

That's a political decision on your part, and not something based on fact. The vast vast majority of the millions of Japanese soldiers enshrined there were not involved in war crimes. It is a little like telling the American president he cannot give a speech on Memorial Day, as some of the soldiers he is memorializing did commit crimes against humanity.

There is deciding to never move on, or there is moving forward. The past needs to be remembered, but picked-at scabs never heal.

Yes the shrine comemerates even fallen samurai,
however,

those in charge of Unit 731 are directly named within the shrine,
these people also escaped any form of war crimes tribunal,
even though the crimes that unit 731 commited are thought to be the worst war crimes ever commited in any war. (i mean infecting innocent women and children with bio-warfare pathogens (as well as new chem warfare toxins), and then disecting them and performing autopsy's (removing organs etc.) while the victim was still alive without any form of pain relief, and infact making sure the victim stayed alive for as long as possible - cold)

The Horror Of UNIT 731 Pt.1/5 Video
(i've not watched this but asume it will give you the facts)

the US is also to blame, after all they made a deal with JPN that gave them full access to the data unit 731 "gathered". the commanding officers were spared war crimes trial, (in return for not destroying the data, thus giving the US a jump start on the Soviets in the bio warfare arms race)

however because they were not tried as war criminals the senior officers were given medals/glory etc.

not only that, but Japanese children are not taught about this (and many other things) in school.
(unlike in germany)
I've even met educated Japanese people with good jobs and masters degrees, who did not know about this.

it is this level of total denial that pisses off the likes of china,
it is this level of denial that makes the visit to the shrine undo any apology to the chinese. infact i think (if i remember correctly) that everytime the Jpn PM visits the shrine the chinese gov. lodge a formal complaint/objection.

Originally Posted by MMM

It is a little like telling the American president he cannot give a speech on Memorial Day, as some of the soldiers he is memorializing did commit crimes against humanity.

There is deciding to never move on, or there is moving forward. The past needs to be remembered, but picked-at scabs never heal.

the diference is that if an American soldier commits war crimes, that soldier will be (in theory) held accountable for his actions and will face court martial upon return to the US, (e.g. abu graib naked prisoner pyramid people)

also those people who commited war crimes are never remembered in speeches.
"we commemerate the brave men and women who fought and died giving us the freedoms we have today blah blah blah" is usually what is said.

in the shrine these people are named and gloryfied.
were Japan to remove these names it would be a massive move in the right direction, but that will never be done.

they bring shame on the brave young men who fought with honour and for the glory of the Empire of the sun. I see no reason why the 731 should be honoured, especially in the same place.

=======
but getting back onto topic,

the US base in japan is sadly necessary.
lets not forget that september a few years ago the nutty proffesor (kim) only went and almost kicked off full scale open nuclear warfare WW3.

something that suprise suprise didnt make it onto the 10 o clock news
(and was infact so strongly denied and covered up (until N korea made an official objection to the UN ) its scary)

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

The American public thinking is way too violent.

B.S. Komitsuki majority of everyday hardworking Americans are just trying to feed families and detest violence. As you bashed someone who grouped all Koreans together in an previous discussion. I'd would ask you to be careful with your statements regarding an entire population of a country . I am not a violent person and neither is my mentality and i am part of the American Public. That's the same as me saying all Muslims are terrorist its petty, ignorant and absurd.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Why? Were you in a bad mood yesterday?

You can't say it ends here, MMM, to a "grown man". You want to tell me I should grow up and behave a bit better, then you order me around like you're my mother?

I'm not trolling anyone. I just want to point out a very simple, personal view that is not an attack on anyone: almost every time someone says something negative about Japanese culture, they're told they should just accept it, it isn't so bad, or they've more to understand, they don't get the full picture.

This isn't true. The fact is, different people have different perspectives on individual things. If something is having a negative, exclusive or detrimental effect on someone, it should be paid attention to. Within reason, of course; I'm not asking everyone to cater for emotional fragilities of others. People can think and disthink what they like. All I'm saying is, just because you think so, it does not make you right.

A lot of people here like to pretend Asian cultures have little to learn, and the West is usually the one with the catching up to do as far as understanding the foreign world is concerned. I find it's the exact other way around. Japan has a lot of serious problems when it comes to dealing with the outside world when cultures collide. Japanese people do not notice it, of course, as they're conditioned culturally to be a certain way. Most people think because the Japanese are conditioned this way, it means the goal of cultural understanding is to tolerate these flaws (as Westerners would put it). There is no sense in this.

You can call me and Daffy trolls if you want, MMM, but the fact is, we, and a massive portion of the Western world, have got a long history in dealing with other cultures and tolerance. The idea that, in any way, Japan is beyond us in dealing with ethnic proprieties is a serious misinterpretation of the proper usage of cultural tolerance/acceptance.

The majority of Japanese people could not possibly have any idea of how to deal with the foreign world, as they've never dealt with them. People like you sweeping staunch critics like myself under the carpet every time we open our mouth is not going to help educate these people.

You may or may not agree with our perspective/impression. It's up to you. But when it's based on facts, it should be respected and acknowledged.

Tenchu, we have both been here long enough to see when personal issues affect people's actions on this forum. I was simply asking you to not fuel the fire. I have PMed and had positive interactions with the other parties, so let's really leave it at that.

I was only talking about that, and it had nothing to do with Western and Asian countries, and I do agree with what you are saying there.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by WhoIsDaffy

Japanese children are not taught about this (and many other things) in school. (unlike in germany)
I've even met educated Japanese people with good jobs and masters degrees, who did not know about this.

Is this fact or supposition? Many people have selective memories when it comes to what they are taught in school vs. how they view the world as adults. They may not be taught details such as this, but I find it hard to believe that the war crimes committed by Japan are not mentioned, at least superficially, at some point in their history classes. I have met too many Japanese that are aware of them to be otherwise.

it is this level of total denial that pisses off the likes of china,
it is this level of denial that makes the visit to the shrine undo any apology to the chinese. infact i think (if i remember correctly) that everytime the Jpn PM visits the shrine the chinese gov. lodge a formal complaint/objection.

I was not having much disagreement with you till this, Daffy. I find it ironic when anyone criticizes other governments lying to either China or the former USSR given their track records in the art of revisionist history, supression of free speech and complete deception of their own citizens. All governmental officials lie when it is in their best interest, without exception. It comes with the job unfortunately. But China spent longer than my lifetime shoveling lies to the entire world in throughout the 20th century. I cannot blame the Japanese, Koreans, Tibetans, Laotians or the Vietnamese for disregarding the truth when dealing with the nation that tried to destroy them less than 100 years ago.

[WhoIsDaffy]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

Is this fact or supposition?

this is fact,

have you ever met a german who does not know what a concentration camp is?

they don't exist, even aged 13

Originally Posted by TalnSG

I was not having much disagreement with you till this, Daffy. I find it ironic when anyone criticizes other governments lying to either China or the former USSR given their track records in the art of revisionist history,

Im not saying that they are lying to china, but by not including these facts (which have a major impact on regional politics) in the basic curriculum is by no means an accidental measure.

I'm not defending the Soviets or the Chinese,
after all it was Stalin who said
"1 death is a tragedy, 1,000,000 deaths is just a statistic"

However one cannot deny that China is now the biggest player by far in the region (perhaps even the world) - and that china-Japan relations are not exactly warm and cosy.

especially when you compare JPN-China relations to Franco-German relations.

there is no simple single reason for this, however one can clearly see the obvious points that lead from the failure of both nations to fully heal the diplomatic rift caused by WW2.

what i do find interesting though, is that during the 80's and 90's Japan was by far the dominant force in the region. Able to bend china to its will.
the first move in repairing relations has to be done by Japan, at this time it would have been easy for Japan to give ground to China but still hold the diplomatic edge, and not lose any national pride leaving relations between the two nations alot stronger. (this was not done to any real effect).

however now, Japan needs china. just as the world needs china. it remains japans move to repair relations, the difference is that now the same diplomatic edge will not be there for japan, as china now stands taller than Japan.

where as before Japan could have repaired relations standing tall, perhaps bending the neck slightly,
to do so now would require a full bow to the chinese.
matters will be worse if a future china demands the bow be made.
the effect this would have on Japanese national politics, would be truly epic

again, would not want to be the Japanese PM

[MMM]

In turn, China also needs Japan, as it does the US. We have set up a system of a Mexican stand-off, so to speak.

People seem to be very quick to brush aside Japan's political and economic standing in the region simply because China has had such a burst in recent years. However at 10% the population of China, Japan still has a higher GDP.

Average family incomes are 6 times higher in Japan than they are in China.

China is riding on the world's propensity (especially right now) to buy cheap goods made with cheap labor, but what happens when the Chinese people decide they don't want to be cheap labor anymore, and want to get paid more?

Japan is riding on the world's propensity to by high quality goods at fair prices. The so-called "Lost Decade" that made everyone think Japan was sinking faster than the Titanic was essentially 10 years of a plateau after several decades of going straight up.

Whether or not Japan (again) apologizes for atrocities in WWII doesn't really matter when the economical stake is so much greater. If China was really upset with Japan they wouldn't sell goods to them. Economics always trumps politics when there is money to be made.

[fluffy0000]

what will happen in China is when 'cheap labor' demands more pay.- will be a repeat of what happened in the United States against it's labor force. During the 60's and 70's the financial markets withdrew capital and de-industrialized the United States and transfered it's capital (money) and industrial base overseas to foreign markets with 'cheap labor'.
This process has been well documented especially in works by Howard Zinn,
Michael Parenti. A simple tour of the US 'rust belt'. Once center of the worlds largest steel works - Auto industry now wasteland of urban decay. The same story for the former US- textile industry.

[Ryzorian]

Countries allways do what's in thier best interest, allways will. The US isn't acting any differently, than any other nation with that type of power would do, and everyone knows it.

Most nations are simply jelous and that's why they are angery, they want to have bases all over the place and be able to set global policy too. People can say otherwise but they aren't being honest with themselves, mankind in general acts this way. It's the "golden rule", he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Sure it would be grand if the world didn't operate that way, but it always has.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

B.S. Komitsuki majority of everyday hardworking Americans are just trying to feed families and detest violence.

And yet, its culture is pretty much violent. Be it bloody like enjoying violent shooting video game or be it controversial like the whole country divided into two political factions feverishly fighting each other. Sorry to say, I still think like this.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Countries allways do what's in thier best interest, allways will. The US isn't acting any differently, than any other nation with that type of power would do, and everyone knows it.

Most nations are simply jelous and that's why they are angery, they want to have bases all over the place and be able to set global policy too. People can say otherwise but they aren't being honest with themselves, mankind in general acts this way. It's the "golden rule", he who has the gold, makes the rules.

Sure it would be grand if the world didn't operate that way, but it always has.

Simply jelous? Now that's a very naive thinking.

Nobody's criticizing USA acting on its own interests. It's just that USA is always having inconvenient foreign and domestic policies that harm itself and other countries.

If America is the leader of the world, it should at least act like a dignified leader and not like a pariah state.

[Ryzorian]

Komitsuki; Come on, warring factions within a nation, what country hasn't had that problem? Violence amoung it's people, again, every nation has that. That's not an American problem, that's a mankind problem. American's just deal with it differently than most.

Now yes, I do think the US has forgotten some of it's orginal ideals about how to deal with other nations, I blame the end of WW2 for much of that.