Is Love Selfish? -For those out there that are creative thinkers

[JasonTakeshi]

Originally Posted by iPhantom

Wow, you can't read can you? I never said everything we do reflects on ourselves... actually on the example I gave it reflects mostly on others, then ot us. This is why it's an altruistic action.

Selfish is CONSCIOUS action to gain by yourself. If you act with the CONSCIOUS thinking to help or save others, it's not selfishness, regardless what unconscious reasons there might be inside you, those get overrided.

You're the one who can't read.

Everything you do reflects on yourself. And thats it. Period.

Its irrelevant if its consciously or not, because either way, it will ALWAYS reflect @ yourself. Its always centered on you, thats why your actions ALWAYS leads to one point - You. If consciously you benefit someone else, it's irrelevant. Unconsciously you will always benefit yourself.

[Twisted]

Sorry for butting in, but me thinks we're losing track of the point of the discussion. In the last two pages this discussion heated up, resulting in some finger pointing and hard language. Little love in a thread that discusses it's nature...

To "douse the flames" a little I would argue the following:

Love is selfish.

Now before you start staggering on your hind legs and throw arguments in my direction, let me elaborate.

First of all, what is selfishness? I personally define selfishness as actions or ways of thinking focussed on ones own gain.

Why do we fall in love? Because deep in our genes there is a need for a mate. We need a mate (in general) to procreate or to complete oneself. Therefore, it centres around the individual. His or her needs, desires and drives.

Love, as an emotion, can truly f*ck you up. It can mess with you on so many levels that you can't begin to fathom how "love" has installed itself in our every day lives.

Why donate for Tahiti? Because these people need help? Yes, but doesn't it give you status as well? It makes you feel a better person. You've helped those poor people by making it possible that food is bought.

So helping other can be out of a need that needs to be fulfilled. Loving someone and feeling loved are some of those needs. A parents love, wanting the best for their children can be altruism. "I want my children to have all those thing I didn't have as a kid.". A need to see them happy because it makes you happy. Again, a need. One needs to feel happy, ones happiness is at the centre of ones existence. Without happiness there is no hope, without hope one loses the will to live.

It boils down to this: survival and recognition.

Love works on many levels. It creates bonds en exists in many forms. But these forms are based on needs. Love can be inconvenient. It can make you sick to the point you could die. There are stories of people who died because they couldn't live without their partner. They simply gave up the will to live. These stories may be fiction, but it does demonstrate love's power.

Love has a hold on us, whether we like it or not. We have no say in it. It can bring forth the best in us, but also the worst in us. Love, as a emotion, is selfish. It dominates your life and dictates your actions with friends, family, you life mate and others. It drives you to fulfil its needs or causes you to feel miserable because you didn't. It can bring forth happiness, but also hatred and jealousy. Yes, love has strange bedfellows.

So, for those who went "tl;dr" here: Love is a selfish emotion centred around fulfilling it's needs.

In short: "love's a b*tch at some times, an angel the others.".

[JasonTakeshi]

Hoi iPhantom, seems like the numbers are agaisn't you.


Wait, i thought I were alone?

[iPhantom]

Originally Posted by Twisted

First of all, what is selfishness? I personally define selfishness as actions or ways of thinking focussed on ones own gain.

Selfishness is acting for your own gain, regardless if others gain as well. But the primary concern is ourself. You got this right, but you didn't analyze the rest well. Let's see:

Why do we fall in love? Because deep in our genes there is a need for a mate. We need a mate (in general) to procreate or to complete oneself. Therefore, it centres around the individual. His or her needs, desires and drives.

Entirely wrong, that isn't the reason we love. That's just sexual attraction. Here comes asexual love, parents-child love. You don't want to have sex with your child, do you?

Why donate for Tahiti? Because these people need help? Yes, but doesn't it give you status as well? It makes you feel a better person. You've helped those poor people by making it possible that food is bought.

But the main focus is on helping them. If you follow your own definition, the situation here would NOT be selfish.

So helping other can be out of a need that needs to be fulfilled. Loving someone and feeling loved are some of those needs. A parents love, wanting the best for their children can be altruism. "I want my children to have all those thing I didn't have as a kid.". A need to see them happy because it makes you happy. Again, a need. One needs to feel happy, ones happiness is at the centre of ones existence. Without happiness there is no hope, without hope one loses the will to live.

Also, altrusim for the same reason as before.

It boils down to this: survival and recognition.

Love has a hold on us, whether we like it or not. We have no say in it. It can bring forth the best in us, but also the worst in us. Love, as a emotion, is selfish. It dominates your life and dictates your actions with friends, family, you life mate and others. It drives you to fulfil its needs or causes you to feel miserable because you didn't. It can bring forth happiness, but also hatred and jealousy. Yes, love has strange bedfellows.

So, for those who went "tl;dr" here: Love is a selfish emotion centred around fulfilling it's needs.

Eh? Your arguments are kind of weird. You come with the result that love is selfish but nothing explains it there, really.

Love focuses on caring for others before oneself. To me, happiness is just an aftereffect of it. doesn't necessarily make me selfish, but an altruist (which also includes having selfish emotions in it, but not as the primary focus)

Originally Posted by JasonTakeshi

Hoi iPhantom, seems like the numbers are agaisn't you.


Wait, i thought I were alone?

O_o Last time I checked JUST page 1, they were all against you. Might have changed, who knows, go back and check it.

[Twisted]

Hum, I wanted to douse the flames, not fan them.

I also got a bit sidetracked there. I'm also talking about love as an emtion. Love itself can be defined in so many way that this post would tke up a page or two.

Originally Posted by iPhantom

Love focuses on caring for others before oneself. To me, happiness is just an aftereffect of it. doesn't necessarily make me selfish, but an altruist (which also includes having selfish emotions in it, but not as the primary focus)

That's altruism. A form of love. So you're partially right there. But why put others needs before your own? That's a question I've asked myself many times.

To make things clear: I donate to WWF, Terre de Hommes and Doctors without borders. Why? Because I care.

I would like to find a girlfriend and make her happy. Why? Because I have a lot of love to give and atain happiness myself through giving that love.

All living things are driven by needs. I don't hate or dislice love, it's just my philysophical point of view. I still think love is wonderfull.

And yes, I am an altruistic person. I put the needs of other before my own. But I can be selfish. Pure altruisim in this world it treated as stupidity. They'll exploit you every chance they get... Trust me, I know. They also call that being naïve.

So, I may augment my statement here:
romantic love is selfish.

Also: I can bring more arguments, but I'm afraid people would see me as a negative person here... That post had some major edits done to it to tone it down. Some sence was left on the editing room floor I guess XD

[iPhantom]

Originally Posted by Twisted

I would like to find a girlfriend and make her happy. Why? Because I have a lot of love to give and atain happiness myself.

So, we're discussing love as an emotion now? Or as an action? Because only the latter is the one who brings happiness in the end. When you feel love as an emotion, you feel love, not happiness. You can be sad and feel love at the same time as well. And on top of that, an emotion cannot be selfish, only an action.

We've been discussing love as an action up to now, so yeah, my earlier points are all valid for it.

[Twisted]

Hehe, I didn't want to disprove your poimts. I also sorta agree with you. Things done out of love can be wonderful. Happiness can bea result of those actions.

But if we speak in love in general, don't we talk about the emotion?

I've read 3 of these ten pages. I'm gonna do myself (and everyone else) a favour an read the remaining seven.

I'd actually love to XD.

[JasonTakeshi]

Originally Posted by iPhantom

O_o Last time I checked JUST page 1, they were all against you. Might have changed, who knows, go back and check it.

Guess i will have to buy you some glass's.

[Twisted]

I waded through this topic and I have to say, I don't agree with either of you (iPhantom and JasonTakeshi).

Let's go back to the whole parent/child thing.

If a family finds itself in a life-treating situation parents will save their kids. Because they love them? Yes. Because they couldn't deal with the emotions cause by the loss? Maybe. Because of selfish motivation? Most likely; yes.

JasonTakeshi stated (loosely quoted here) that the human species drive is not to feel negative emotions. Well, it's a innate behaviourism to seek happiness. Your parents teach you that in your upbringing. It's not nature, its nurture. The main drive of any species, from amoebae to whale is one thing: to survive and pass along it's genetic information. Darwinian law so to speak.

Going back to the situation where a family's life is in danger a parent responds by saving the kids. a) because the want them to survive b) because they love them. A parents core instinct is to insure the survival of its children. This is called love, it is defines as love, but it's also instinct.

So, my (new) argument is the following: Love is neither selfish nor selfless. It relies on drives and instincts. Love is a natural drive that is paired with strong drives and emotions that dictate our every day lives.

[iPhantom]

Originally Posted by JasonTakeshi

Guess i will have to buy you some glass's.

lol if you denied even that, there's no way toa rgue with you. Unless you count backwards.