The "Unsinkable Carrier" for the USA

[MMM]

Originally Posted by termogard

Okinawa Prefecture is still a part of Japan, right?

You didn't say "Okinawans" you said "ordinary Japanese". Of course, that includes Okinawa, but I feel like you are changing your tune a little here.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by MMM

... but I feel like you are changing your tune a little here.

You are a good observer !

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by termogard

I see no connection between my own military experience and the attitude of native Japanese toward to American servicemen currently located in Japan. Sorry.

So you never served in Japan? You don't have any personal experience with being affiiated with bases inside Japan? Because I do. So how can you comment on the relationship between "ordinary Japanese" and base personnel?

Just recently, in October, I was part of a group that cleaned the area outside of the main gate at Yokosuka. This is Japanese administrated soil. We did it to be good neighbors. Was all the trash and dirt from sailors? No. We even caught Japanese teens littering in front of the main gate while cleaning.

LOL. You and your coworkers are Americans, right? So it is normal that you support a point of view of the US Administration.

...Uhm. No. My coworkers are all Japanese. I'm the only American teacher at my schools. The rest are, of course, Japanese teachers and administrators.

So, feel free to provide a valid source where Okinawans called Americans as "liberators".

There are plenty. And every year my ninth graders take a summer trip to Okinawa to learn about this. They come back quite shell-shocked and we have some interesting conversations about the war, and yes, Hiroshima and Nagaski do come into it.

Besides, I said were hailed. At the time. Past tense. I am WELL aware (how many frikken liberty standowns does it take to get it drilled in? Not very many!) of issues now.

I got "my ideas' from the Net. For instance

How many people participated in that poll? How scientific was it? I'm afraid what you have is 85% of RESPONDERS to that poll, extrapolated out to the entire population. In addition, the Net is often secondary sources. You ask me for a valid source but then present wikipedia, a secondary source (and not a perfect one, at that)?

Okinawa Prefecture is still a part of Japan, right?

This depends. Okinawans do not really consider themselves 日本人 and have a long history of oppression and second class citizenship under the control of mainland Japan.

Now, I ask again, what kind of personal, day to day experience do you have with these matters?

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

So you never served in Japan?

Nope. Thank God, I have never been among occupation forces. I carried a military service within borders of my country.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You don't have any personal experience with being affiiated with bases inside Japan? Because I do.

Really? Should I blindly believe your words?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

So how can you comment on the relationship between "ordinary Japanese" and base personnel?

Easy. This is a forum. And I have to say your logic is too strange for a teacher. The fact that I have no personal military experience on Japanese soil doesn't mean lack of my right to speak about "relationship between ordinary Japanese and base personnel".
By your logic, one could say to mentioned Okinawa protesters something like "hey, your childs aren't raped all, one-by-one, so drop your angry slogans and get out ! "

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Just recently, in October, I was part of a group that cleaned the area outside of the main gate at Yokosuka. This is Japanese administrated soil. We did it to be good neighbors. Was all the trash and dirt from sailors? No. We even caught Japanese teens littering in front of the main gate while cleaning.

What a biblical icon you painted.......Good American sailors teaching japanese teens how to keep their soil tidy.......

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

There are plenty.

Ok, ok. Could you provide some of them to back your statements?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

we have some interesting conversations about the war, and yes, Hiroshima and Nagaski do come into it.

I would be surprised if Japanese children knew nothing about brutal bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

How many people participated in that poll?

You should address your question to staff of the magazine.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

How scientific was it?

You wanna say that Okinawa reporters have no idea how to interview poll respondents?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

In addition, the Net is often secondary sources.

Often, but not always.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Okinawans do not really consider themselves ??? and have a long history of oppression and second class citizenship under the control of mainland Japan.

Whatever. Politically, Okinawa Prefecture is still a part of Japan.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Now, I ask again, what kind of personal, day to day experience do you have with these matters?

This is completely irrelevant to discussion.

[MMM]

I am sensing where this discussion is going, and it isn't a good place. I don't think we have any reason to think Tsuwabaki is lying, so don't make that accusation unless you can back it up.

Let's keep this discussion to the facts and not get into personal attacks.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by termogard

Nope. Thank God, I have never been among occupation forces. I carried a military service within borders of my country.

The occupation ended a very, very long time ago. American forces are the guests of the Japanese people, and are here at the Japanese government's invitation. If the majority of the Japanese electorate really wanted this changed, they would communicate it so to the government. This was not a major issue, or even really an issue at all during the last election. I have seen the protests in person and they are a relatively small number of Japanese citizens.

Really? Should I blindly believe your words?

Be happy to provide photographs if you would like, but MMM has summed it up quite well. You're suggesting I have reason to lie, I don't. I think I even have a photograph of a protest outside a gate to Yokosuka that I took.

Easy. This is a forum. And I have to say your logic is too strange for a teacher. The fact that I have no personal military experience on Japanese soil doesn't mean lack of my right to speak about "relationship between ordinary Japanese and base personnel".

I'm not questioning your right to speak. You can also suggest that American service members are brain-eating purple cow people from Mars. No one is saying you can't. I am saying that you haven't presented any compelling arguments for your view points. You are at a distance. I am not. My experiences counter your claims, and you cannot counter my experiences without accusations of deceit. It is your logic that is flawed, not mine.

By your logic, one could say to mentioned Okinawa protesters something like "hey, your childs aren't raped all, one-by-one, so drop your angry slogans and get out !"

Children, and... what? This doesn't even make sense. I am saying merely that the number of Japanese that care enough, or believe that position strongly enough, to protest are not a significant enough majority to alter Japanese political realities. This is true. They don't have the voting power, because they are a tiny minority.... Not that Japan has a very active electorate. Voter apathy is a real issue here.

What a biblical icon you painted.......Good American sailors teaching japanese teens how to keep their soil tidy.......

I did not say that. We recognised that area was primarily a thoroughfare for sailors, and that some of the trash was there because of the base. As good neighbors we thought it our duty to clean up after "ourselves." The fact we caught Japanese teens contributing was merely evidence that it is not always, or even necessarily often, just sailors. You should not be so hasty to label.

This is quite enough America and American service member bashing, thank you.

Ok, ok. Could you provide some of them to back your statements?

You first. After all, it is your thread. I'll counter-source.

I would be surprised if Japanese children knew nothing about brutal bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

*sigh* You would be surprised then. Education about the war is happening recently, but it has been a very slow process. I love how you ignored that my ninth graders go to Okinawan beaches to learn about what ethnic Japanese soldiers and their commanders did to ethnic Okinawans, and instead latched on to the one thing that would allow you toss out more America-bashing. That's sooooo 2006.

Very recently, there have been changes in Kyoto Prefecture to more fully address the war, and I have spoken to my students about the American viewpoint on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as my own personal opinions. Given what they learn about in Okinawa, it is a real glimpse into how easily ethics and morals are skewed and distorted during war. Who was more brutal? Who was right? Who was worse? And really, does it matter? I don't know the answers to these questions, and I may come to different answers than my students eventually do, but let there be no mistake: five years ago, these discussions would not have happened. Period.

You should address your question to staff of the magazine.

Nice parry.

You wanna say that Okinawa reporters have no idea how to interview poll respondents?

I want to say that I don't trust poll numbers.

Often, but not always.

Often, unless digitised. Wikipedia is a secondary source.

Whatever. Politically, Okinawa Prefecture is still a part of Japan.

...spoken like someone who has never experienced or studied Japanese politics (even if you've been here) and doesn't care enough to do so. This is not a "whatever" situation. It is an identity issue that will always be debated.

This is completely irrelevant to discussion.

It is most definitely relevant. You make grandiose claims about the Japanese people, about their interactions with base personnel, about bases, about politics in Japan... You have not once shown where you have interviewed Japanese people, you have not spoken to base personnel (both contractors and service members) about their side, you have not done their jobs in the locations they serve. I cannot say if you've been to Japan, but you do not seem to have really immersed yourself in the news of the day for a fair period of time.

Quoting someone else's work is fine for an undergraduate essay, but it is lazy as a reporter, and unconvincing to someone familiar with significant parts of the debate.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by MMM

Let's keep this discussion to the facts and not get into personal attacks.

OK, no problem

[Tyrien]

Might be just me but I read that statement as saying "Japan will always be an ally to the US".

But I guess every county needs conspiracies

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

The occupation ended a very, very long time ago. American forces are the guests of the Japanese people, and are here at the Japanese government's invitation.

Seems that American Forces are "guests" in Japan since 1945 when they knocked a door of a householder by two nuclear explosive devices. Anyway, I think you could provide a document depicting an "invitation" of American Forces to Japanese soil.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

If the majority of the Japanese electorate really wanted this changed, they would communicate it so to the government. This was not a major issue

Time will show.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You are at a distance. I am not. My experiences counter your claims, and you cannot counter my experiences without accusations of deceit. It is your logic that is flawed, not mine.

I counter your personal experience by providing some sources about protesters from Okinawa who demand withdrawal of US Forces out. Can you read them?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You first. After all, it is your thread. I'll counter-source.

Again, I did it. Check my previous posts.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

*sigh* You would be surprised then. Education about the war is happening recently, but it has been a very slow process. I love how you ignored that my ninth graders go to Okinawan beaches to learn about what ethnic Japanese soldiers and their commanders did to ethnic Okinawans

Did you offer your ninth graders to visit Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum? No?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

...and I have spoken to my students about the American viewpoint on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as my own personal opinions. Given what they learn about in Okinawa, it is a real glimpse into how easily ethics and morals are skewed and distorted during war. Who was more brutal? Who was right? Who was worse? And really, does it matter? I don't know the answers to these questions.

"I don't know answers", you said? Then how can you teach your students?! As for "who was more brutal" and "who was worse" questions. At least, Japanese bombed Pearl-Harbour, a naval base. In response, Americans bombed Japanese cities, filled by civilians.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

And really, does it matter?

It does because nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were and still are worst war crimes in human history.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Wikipedia is a secondary source.

Wikipedia is based on written sources.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

..spoken like someone who has never experienced or studied Japanese politics (even if you've been here) and doesn't care enough to do so.

What? Would you be more specific, please? You deny that Okinawa Prefecture is a part of Japan?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You make grandiose claims about the Japanese people, about their interactions with base personnel, about bases, about politics in Japan... You have not once shown where you have interviewed Japanese people, you have not spoken to base personnel (both contractors and service members) about their side, you have not done their jobs in the locations they serve.

(Yawn) I am neither occupant, nor reporter. It is not my job. Try again , please

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Quoting someone else's work is fine for an undergraduate essay, but it is lazy as a reporter, and unconvincing to someone familiar with significant parts of the debate.

Well, by comparison to you, I backed my statements by internet sources.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by termogard

Seems that American Forces are "guests" in Japan since 1945 when they knocked a door of a householder by two nuclear explosive devices. Anyway, I think you could provide a document depicting an "invitation" of American Forces to Japanese soil.

Your provocative tone and flowery language are unnecessary. Here is the Status of Forces Agreement. The treaty itself can also be found and provided, probably on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. It took exactly five seconds via google, and is a primary source.

Confirming that the United States armed forces maintained in Japan under the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between Japan and the United States of America (hereinafter referred to as "the Treaty" and the Agreement under Article VI of the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between Japan and the United States of America, Regarding Facilities and Areas and the Status of United States Armed Forces in Japan (hereinafter referred to as "the Status of Forces Agreement"), both signed at Washington on January 19, 1960 (hereinafter referred to as "the United States armed forces"), contribute to the security of Japan and the maintenance of international peace and security in the Far East...

Emphasis mine. Source: MOFA: Agreement between Japan and the United States of America concerning New Special Measures relating to Article XXIV of the Agreement under Article VI of the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between Japan and the United States of America,

Time will show.

If at any time Japan decides that the presence of the US forces do not "contribute to the security of Japan and the maintenance of international peace and security in the Far East..." we will leave. There are already contingency plans of how to turn Yokosuka, Sasebo, and the air fields back over to Japanese control. Now, I know these exist, but I haven't personally seen them. I don't have the clearance. So choose not to believe me on that, if you so wish, I can't back it up. I do know some of my former unit members do have that clearance and we've talked a bit about it, in very general terms.

I counter your personal experience by providing some sources about protesters from Okinawa who demand withdrawal of US Forces out. Can you read them?

You provided a few newspaper articles which talk about the protests. You provided another with a poll that doesn't talk about its methodology. This is not enough to counter my personal experiences. Yes, there are protestors. Yes, there are people who would like America to leave. However, Japan is a democracy. Last election you saw the LDP get kicked out and replaced by the DPJ. The American presence was not a major, or even a minor, issue. It was mostly the entrenchment of the bureaucracy and Taro Aso's slow response to the global recession.

Again, I did it. Check my previous posts.

See above. You provided some articles that establish two facts, and two facts only: Some people protested, and probably will protest again. There are people who don't like the American presence and care enough to protest or respond to a poll.

I never disputed these facts. I just don't believe you have provided sources that these individuals are more than a vocal minority without voting power.

Did you offer your ninth graders to visit Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum? No?

Why do you make these kinds of assumptions. I have been there. Again, I have photographs. I fact, I went there on July 4th. From the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum: the second largest nationality to die from the effects of the bombs? Americans. Not just soldiers, but aid workers, doctors, nurses, Red Cross... Right there. On the wall. On a placard.

The coverage at the peace museum was very balanced. It talked a lot about Hiroshima as a base. The same base that barracked the soldiers who were involved in the Rape of Nanking. If the Japanese can recognise how the march to war played out, why can't you?

"I don't know answers", you said? Then how can you teach your students?! As for "who was more brutal" and "who was worse" questions. At least, Japanese bombed Pearl-Harbour, a naval base. In response, Americans bombed Japanese cities, filled by civilians.

Wow. You need to go back and study history. You're missing about four years of history there. There are a lot of events, on both sides, that lead to the decision to drop those bombs. It was not a direct response to Pearl Harbor, and anyone who argues so is just trying to pick a fight.

It does because nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were and still are worst war crimes in human history.

This is a matter of opinion, not of fact. There are many contenders for that. Especially Hitler's Final Solution. It also ignores Japanese actions in Manchuria and China, which the Japanese themselves acknowledge. I can only conclude this is America-bashing for the sake of American-bashing.

Wikipedia is based on written sources.

Primary sources are always encouraged. That's composition 101.

What? Would you be more specific, please? You deny that Okinawa Prefecture is a part of Japan?

*facepalm* Not politically, no. However, the Okinawan people are ethnically different than mainland Japanese. Since Japanese took control of the island chain, Okinawa has been oppressed, and during the war was badly abused. Even now, Okinawa is the poorest prefecture in Japan.

(Yawn) I am neither occupant, nor reporter. It is not my job. Try again , please

You have made it your "job" to bring up these issues, and try to use them as a wedge issue against America. That means, if you are serious about your positions, you need to act seriously. You need to do it better than the other guy, or else you're just some Anti-America wacko on a forum that should be labeled a troll. If you want to be taken seriously as a scholar, you need to step up. So far, all you have done is pretty much whailed against big old mean America, and discount me because I am an American who was in the American military, despite the fact I am clearly working with primary sources, and you are not.

I still haven't heard you once say if you are even in Japan.

Well, by comparison to you, I backed my statements by internet sources.

I offered photographs. Wikipedia is too general to really delve into the history of Okinawa, but this link Okinawa's History INDEX is far better. It still doesn't describe in graphic detail some of the events that the Japanese government perpetrated against the Okinawans. Especially during the Battle of Okinawa. There was a report from survivors in the Japan Times, but it was about how my ninth graders, and others all over Japan, are going to Okinawa to learn about the use of Okinawans as shields, and the use of Okinawan children, some of them elementary school age, as soldiers, sent out to meet the landing Americans. I'm still looking for it, since I read it in print, not online.