The "Unsinkable Carrier" for the USA

[MMM]

Let's keep this discussion civil and on topic. Arguments about which side was worse are never-ending and therefore pointless.

Let's stay on the subject at hand.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Here is the Status of Forces Agreement. The treaty itself can also be found and provided, probably on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. It took exactly five seconds via google, and is a primary source.

This Treaty is about Cooperation between Forces, not about INVITATION. Further, the US Forces were deployed in Japan long before signing the Treaty. In previous post you wrote about invitation of Americans by Japanese people.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You provided a few newspaper articles which talk about the protests. You provided another with a poll that doesn't talk about its methodology. This is not enough to counter my personal experiences.

My sources depict opinions of relatively large group of people. Your experience is just your personal experience. See the difference?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

The coverage at the peace museum was very balanced. It talked a lot about Hiroshima as a base. The same base that barracked the soldiers who were involved in the Rape of Nanking.

A few squads of soldiers in barrack still doesn't make the entire Hiroshima a military base. And such actions as Rape of Nanking were performed by Japanese Military, not civilians.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Wow. You need to go back and study history. You're missing about four years of history there. There are a lot of events, on both sides, that lead to the decision to drop those bombs. It was not a direct response to Pearl Harbor, and anyone who argues so is just trying to pick a fight.

Which events do you mean? Since the very beginning of War, Imperial Japanese Military Forces fought American Forces, not American civilians. They did not bomb American cities.
Americans dropped nuclear explosive devices on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for merely two reasons.
a. To test a nuclear weapon on humans
b. To demonstrate an American Military Might to Japan and Soviets.

Therefore, Japanese civilians, non-combatants were converted to lab animals by the American leadership.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

It also ignores Japanese actions in Manchuria and China, which the Japanese themselves acknowledge. I can only conclude this is America-bashing for the sake of American-bashing.

America-bashing for the sake of American-bashing? No. By the way, one-million Imperial Army in Manchuria was defeated without use of nuclear weaponry.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

*facepalm* Not politically, no. However, the Okinawan people are ethnically different than mainland Japanese. Since Japanese took control of the island chain, Okinawa has been oppressed, and during the war was badly abused. Even now, Okinawa is the poorest prefecture in Japan.

Anyway, from a political point of view Okinawa, poor or rich, is a part of Japan.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

*You have made it your "job" to bring up these issues, and try to use them as a wedge issue against America.

So what? Are Americans beyond any criticism? Since when, could you tell?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

you're just some Anti-America wacko on a forum that should be labeled a troll.

You know, were I American, I would complain to moderator about name calling.
When someone has no ability fo find valid counter-arguments, he usually turns to name calling. An axiom.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I still haven't heard you once say if you are even in Japan.

Once again, this is completely irrelevant to discussion.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

are going to Okinawa to learn about the use of Okinawans as shields, and the use of Okinawan children, some of them elementary school age, as soldiers, sent out to meet the landing Americans. I'm still looking for it, since I read it in print, not online.

I also read about Japanese school children who were ready to encounter possible US invasion on mainland. It is normal and called Patriotism.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Let's keep this discussion civil and on topic. Arguments about which side was worse are never-ending and therefore pointless.

Let's stay on the subject at hand.

I'm enjoying the topic too. Good points by the OP and others. Despite good points and opinions from the article links posted, it unlikely that things will ever change unless the US goes belly-up bankrupt. Buy hey, anything is possible these days.

I'd like to see the Elitist "experienced" "Scholarly" "Unless you're in Japan you have no opinion on this topic" posts minimized though.

The bomb being dropped is so off topic though in this thread.
The bomb is not a cut and dry, black and white topic, nobody is right on this thread in their opinion nor will anyone anywhere ever be.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by termogard

This Treaty is about Cooperation between Forces, not about INVITATION. Further, the US Forces were deployed in Japan long before signing the Treaty. In previous post you wrote about invitation of Americans by Japanese people.

This is an invitation. The Japanese administration can ask the US to leave at any time. It will do that when elected by an electorate wishing to this to happen. It has not, and I do not suspect it will any time soon.

My sources depict opinions of relatively large group of people. Your experience is just your personal experience. See the difference?

No, your sources depict opinions of a fairly small group of people. My experiences may be my experiences, but they have happened all over Japan. I have met thousands of Japanese people, and spoken to people about the issue in several cities and areas all over Japan. I have also spoken to my former unit members currently serving in Japan. That's a very wide range of individuals.

A few squads of soldiers in barrack still doesn't make the entire Hiroshima a military base. And such actions as Rape of Nanking were performed by Japanese Military, not civilians.

...Actually, the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum shows, in a quite detailed way, how the the city was covered in military targets. Headquarters, barracks, factories... etc. Again, the museum itself acknowledges Hiroshima, as a city, was a legitimate target. This is not disputed. If America had been closer to Japan, the Japanese would have attacked civilians. This is not my opinion. This is straight out of the horse's mouth. See a source below.

Which events do you mean? Since the very beginning of War, Imperial Japanese Military Forces fought American Forces, not American civilians. They did not bomb American cities.

Half true. Oregon was bombed by the Japanese with the intent start blazes that would threaten major Californian towns and cities:

Glancing at the chart spread out before him, Fujita saw the here meant about 75 miles north of the California border, far from any large city. An explanation was soon forthcoming: The northwestern United States is full of forests. Once a blaze gets started in the deep woods, it is difficult to stop. Sometimes whole towns are destroyed. If we were to bomb some of these forests, it would put the enemy to much trouble. It might even cause large-scale panic, once residents knew Japan could reach out and bomb their families and homes from 5,000 miles away. Sworn to secrecy, Fujita left the meeting stunned but eager to do his duty.

Emphasis mine. Source: Japanese Bomb the Continental U. S. West Coast

Americans dropped nuclear explosive devices on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for merely two reasons.
a. To test a nuclear weapon on humans
b. To demonstrate an American Military Might to Japan and Soviets.

Those were two of the reasons. They were not the only ones. To merely shrink it down to those two reasons without considering a far broader context is scholastically remiss. You do history a great disservice. These are complex issues. They are not black and white.

If the Japanese had obtained nuclear weaponry sooner, and had the means to drop it on the US...

There were also plans, on the US side (I would have to go digging to find sources) that should the Japanese invade US territory, we would have dropped the bombs on US soil. We most certainly would have taken heavy US civilian causalities. The US administration believed the Japanese imperial forces were not only capable of this, they believed that once the invasion started it would not stop. Just as we believed a conventional planned invasion of Japan would lead to massive causalities on both sides.

Therefore, Japanese civilians, non-combatants were converted to lab animals by the American leadership.

And the Japanese did not conduct "lab experiments" on POWs and foriegn nationals? Of course they did. And you know it.

America-bashing for the sake of American-bashing? No. By the way, one-million Imperial Army in Manchuria was defeated without use of nuclear weaponry.

Yes, it was. Was Japanese imperialism alone going to be stopped by conventional weaponry. I don't know. I wasn't there. Neither were you. The US administration and the other allies did not think so. I don't think so either, but this is an opinion, not a fact.

Anyway, from a political point of view Okinawa, poor or rich, is a part of Japan.

Which doesn't negate my point.

So what? Are Americans beyond any criticism? Since when, could you tell?

I value well-reasoned and articulated critiques of American policy. I do not value your criticism because it is not well-reasoned and not well articulated. You haven't done your homework. You deny that you have to. You try to counter my sources with yours which have already been countered. You resort to personal attacks, and attacks against an entire body of people. No, sir, Americans are not beyond criticism. Yet, I would hope such criticism was backed up by more than unsubstantiated ravings.

You know, were I American, I would complain to moderator about name calling.
When someone has no ability fo find valid counter-arguments, he usually turns to name calling. An axiom.

Name calling? You have repeatedly called Americans all sorts of names in your posts. You've implied or explicitly stated that we are occupiers, that we rape children, that we are brutal to our enemies beyond international law, and that we continue to hold Japan at ransom to itself. I use the present tense, because you do.

I have countered your arguments with ease. It is you who resorts to America and American bashing for the sake of doing so. Your agenda is clearly not to actually consider the topic. Your agenda is to hop on the "America-Bashing is Cool" train.

Once again, this is completely irrelevant to discussion.

Once again, no it isn't. It's very relevant because you claim to "know" the opinions of "ordinary Japanese people." You have yet to show what experience you have with "ordinary Japanese people" or the issues involved.

So far, I conclude, you have none.

I also read about Japanese school children who were ready to encounter possible US invasion on mainland. It is normal and called Patriotism.

...I just can't even begin to understand where you think you're going with this.

When the Americans landed in Okinawa, ethnic Japanese soldiers, rather than fight themselves, handed rifles to Okinawan school children and sent them out AHEAD of the ethnic Japanese soldiers. I'm stunned you would compare that to patriotism. Absolutely stunned.

I'd like to see the Elitist "experienced" "Scholarly" "Unless you're in Japan you have no opinion on this topic" posts in this thread minimized though.

...Oh, give me a break.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by termogard

Which events do you mean? Since the very beginning of War, Imperial Japanese Military Forces fought American Forces, not American civilians. They did not bomb American cities.

Actually this is not true. Besides the mention of the balloon bombs that actually did reach the west coast, but were squashed in the media to make the Japanese think they were a failure, Japanese forces did invade the Aleutian Islands of Kiska and Attu in 1942 and took native Alaskans prisoner to work in Hokkaido prisoner camps.

You seem to have this impression that the Japanese were angels and the Americans were devils in the War in the Pacific. We all know neither is 100% true. Let's agree that War is Hell, and there is little we are going to do here to change that or change history (unless you count getting your facts wrong).

*EDIT* And I will ask again that the Atomic Bombing talk be squashed. That is OT for this thread.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by termogard

You know, were I American, I would complain to moderator about name calling.
When someone has no ability fo find valid counter-arguments, he usually turns to name calling. An axiom.

In Tsuwakaki's defense, you have sliced up his quote here to your advantage. I was mislead by this, but have cleared it up with Tsuwabaki....something I shouldn't have to do:

Here is the FULL quote.

That means, if you are serious about your positions, you need to act seriously. You need to do it better than the other guy, or else you're just some Anti-America wacko on a forum that should be labeled a troll.

This is not a legitimate complaint to the mods, as he he didn't insult you.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by MMM

In Tsuwakaki's defense, you have sliced up his quote here to your advantage. I was mislead by this, but have cleared it up with Tsuwabaki....something I shouldn't have to do:

Here is the FULL quote.

That means, if you are serious about your positions, you need to act seriously. You need to do it better than the other guy, or else you're just some Anti-America wacko on a forum that should be labeled a troll.

This is not a legitimate complaint to the mods, as he he didn't insult you.

Does Tsuvakaki mean Tsuwabuki? Oh, that mysterious Japanese language.....

Do you really think he is so weak in word fencing and therefore cannot handle this discussion himself?

[termogard]

Originally Posted by MMM

You seem to have this impression that the Japanese were angels and the Americans were devils in the War in the Pacific.

No, sir. I never depicted Japanese as "angels". I just wrote that during WW II Japanese Forces did not bomb cities or towns filled by American civilians.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by termogard

Does Tsuvakaki mean Tsuwabuki? Oh, that mysterious Japanese language.....

Do you really think he is so weak in word fencing and therefore cannot handle this discussion himself?

If you are going to point out someone's misspelling, at least get it right.

I know Tsuwabuki can handle himself, but now you are reducing this thread to a level of immaturity that is below the level of the participants...yourself included.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by termogard

No, sir. I never depicted Japanese as "angels". I just wrote that during WW II Japanese Forces did not bomb cities or towns filled by American civilians.

Even if that were true, what is your point? I am sure I could find dozens of crimes against humanity the Japanese Imperial Forces committed that the Americans didn't. What does that prove?