School: Preparing for life or Babysitting?

[Tyrien]

I feel that the modern education system needs to be reworked. Currently the system is structured around preparing one for an industrialized society. The current system was made in response to the need the industrial revolution generated. We're in the middle of the digital revolution now.

The probably with school systems now, at least public eduction, is that maths, science, and english are all at the top of the pyramid. The arts have constantly remained at the bottom of the spectrum. This combination of raising facts above the arts destroys our creative nature we're gifted with at birth.

We're taught that we should never be wrong, and punished for doing so. We're given creative tools such as glue, pencil crayons, markers, crayons, blocks, scissors, and other materials in the lower grades and are constantly robbed of them piece by piece as we get older. This teaches us to stay on the same line, never think outside the box, and that being creative is wrong.

I believe this is the reason why members of our society are so plagued by their inhibitions. We're so afraid of being wrong we change who we are to satisfy the public eye. This is why actors, actresses, singers, painters, architects, and other artists are so special. These people are not afraid of being wrong, and embrace their creative nature.

Now I'm not saying math, science, and english is not important, because it is. What I'm saying that the arts should be valued equally.

I believe we're going to see a shift in how the education system is managed within the next few decades. A lot of cooperations have started to realize how powerful a creative environment is.

This is one of the reasons google has become so successful, and keeps moving forward with more and more innovative products each year. Just do a quick search of their office floors. Even the architecture is nothing short of amazing.

[xyzone]

I know Americans are deluded about this, but your public school system in general is babysitting, plain and simple. There are exceptions in districts here and there as there always are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

Ask a Japanese exchange student who spends time in the US what they think about the schooling. I don't mean to be crass, but I knew one Japanese girl who evidently only came to the US to skank out and party. Let's keep it real, that's what happened. Sorry, US schools are a joke, but it's no accident. That's how the status quo likes it to create ignorant drones and helpless slackers to make cannon fodder for their oil wars and shill grunt brigades -- oh, and shoppers.

[manganimefan227]

Heh, So school thinks they just need to worry about teaching us technology and industry

Tyrien has pointed something out that has ticked me off since eighth grade ( In 9th now) Others have brought good points too and for taking the time todo so I thank you

The point I'm talking about is the creative thing, I've neverliked the crafty work too much but I did like writing stories, It made me want to bea writer! Now I feel there is nothing much but analyzing literature. It helps in SOME fields but not all.

My English class is taking 6-9 WEEKS to write a Reaserch paper explaining why a certain person is a hero. Is such a long time necessary? Sheesh . . .

Another thing is I took myself from a "Slackingschool with lots of fighting to a school with nice people but alot tougher but I'm too afraid of the high school to go back and two of my classes are still likeable.

Atleast Biology is taking time to reteach and go just a bit detailly further in topics from eigth grade and I have many friends there and in my Japanese class . . .

School is weird, and questionable!

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by xyzone

I know Americans are deluded about this, but your public school system in general is babysitting, plain and simple. There are exceptions in districts here and there as there always are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

You have experiences with multiple school districts in multiple states, in various regions of the US, and different demographics? Perhaps as both a student and as a teacher? Since your tone indicates you are not an American, I find this hard to believe.

Where do you come by this "rule?"

Ask a Japanese exchange student who spends time in the US what they think about the schooling. I don't mean to be crass, but I knew one Japanese girl who evidently only came to the US to skank out and party.

My students have a lot more paperwork in Japan than I did. More tests, more rote memorisation. They have a lot less creative thinking. A lot less music. A lot less art.

Japanese teachers have very little student teaching. They do not have to take child psychology.

The view of education is very, very different. If your friend thought she could skate by because of lack of busywork, she's in for a rough ride, both in Japan, where we are already having a second lost generation, and in America, where the ability to regurgitate is not useful.

Let's keep it real, that's what happened. Sorry, US schools are a joke, but it's no accident. That's how the status quo likes it to create ignorant drones and helpless slackers to make cannon fodder for their oil wars and shill grunt brigades -- oh, and shoppers.

Yeah... This is where I write you off. Exit, stage right.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

It's entirely possible that he may not have done. I - for example - never was taught cooking or using tools, such lessons didn't start until Year 7 (age 11-12), and then it was entirely theoretically knowledge, I believe I only ever cooked two things: a fruit salad and a cheese sandwich, which as you can imagine one doesn't exactly need a class on to know how to do such simple meals. Then from ages 14-15 it's an optional course. So we learnt exactly three years or theoretically cooking skills :P

Personally I agree with some of the other posters, schools need to teach things more practical to everyday life, a lot of the time the skills we learnt were things easily forgotten or not applicable to life. I for one have never used a quadratic equation outside of lessons, but things such as cooking would would have been a lot more useful to have learnt! Then again, I suppose it's not entirely up to the schools, but to parents as well.

I think the opposite. You don't need to take a class to be taught how to make a fruit salad or a cheese sandwich.

Maybe you missed what I wrote above, but you do not learn quadratic equations just so you can use quadratic equations, but rather you learn such things to train your mind HOW to understand things like quadratic equations.

Just as you don't lift weights in order to be able to lift weights. Lifting weights is training to be able lift other heavy objects. Learning seemingly useless math formulas is training for other mind challenging work.

[xyzone]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You have experiences with multiple school districts in multiple states, in various regions of the US, and different demographics?

No. Have you (been to every single district or at least one in every state)?

Perhaps as both a student and as a teacher?

No. Are you trying to say one requires personal experience as both in every single district to have an accurate overview of the situation? Personal experience, statistics, widely known poor test scores, wide spread ignorance of new college level students, and not to mention just the plain evident outlook of many young adults these days will suffice to me as valid basis for the lacking public school system, which is indeed overall just a government daycare center in most districts.

Since your tone indicates you are not an American, I find this hard to believe.

It doesn't matter what I am. My tone was just expressive to emphasize objectivity, nothing more. I say these things because I want them fixed. If I didn't care I wouldn't be saying anything about it. Don't attack the messenger. But as a matter of fact, I was not born in the US and English is not my first language. Obviously, I did go to school here. But that doesn't matter much and this is not about me. If you want to make it about me and ignore the well known facts about the public school system because I don't personally comply with your requirements, be my guest.

Where do you come by this "rule?"

From what I mention above. If you don't care about my experiences, look at the test scores. Go look at the the staggering ignorance of high school level students and many comedic anecdotes about it. In one instance, many high school students quizzed didn't know who Thomas Jefferson was and could not name the 2 houses of congress or even the 3 branches of government. Are the Japanese students of equal grade that uninformed about their own government? I doubt it.

My students have a lot more paperwork in Japan than I did. More tests, more rote memorisation. They have a lot less creative thinking. A lot less music. A lot less art.

I know the general differences. Stuff is actually taught there and the system is actually dedicated towards discipline to achieve it. Less creative thinking? Less music and art? You think most public schools in the US are Socratic campuses of thought or orchestra halls and art shops full of highly skilled and dedicated music and art teachers? That's not correct. It's absurdly false. They're full of cliques who go there mainly to socialize. Japan may be rigid and not value creativity much in schools, but quite frankly that's none of my business. I just know that overall it's better education, if only because it's competent at something other than putting kids together to socialize and keep them out of their parents' way.

Japanese teachers have very little student teaching. They do not have to take child psychology.

You just also described public school teachers in America. If you think otherwise you must either be or acquiescence to teachers union leeches or you must have romped exclusively in yuppie schools, not the average ones.

The view of education is very, very different. If your friend thought she could skate by because of lack of busywork, she's in for a rough ride, both in Japan, where we are already having a second lost generation, and in America, where the ability to regurgitate is not useful.

I don't think you understood. The paperwork was a joke to her. She didn't neglect any schoolwork. I think it's well known fact among exchange students from certain countries that the experience to American schools is pretty much only social, and perhaps linguistic.

Yeah... This is where I write you off. Exit, stage right.

This must be the creativity you're talking about. Let me just grab my Hamlet gear and I'll get off the stage.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by xyzone

No. Have you (been to every single district or at least one in every state)?

I have been enrolled in multiple school districts in multiple states. I have also been in two private schools in two different states. I did my student teaching in urban, low-income areas.

No. Are you trying to say one requires personal experience as both in every single district to have an accurate overview of the situation? Personal experience, statistics, widely known poor test scores, wide spread ignorance of new college level students, and not to mention just the plain evident outlook of many young adults these days will suffice to me as valid basis for the lacking public school system, which is indeed overall just a government daycare center in most districts.

Well, now. You didn't back up your comments with personal experience. You did not offer statistics, the "widely known poor test scores," examples of "wide spread ignorance of college level students" and I'm not sure where you're getting this "just plain evident outlook" of America's youth. As far as I can tell, you mentioned one Japanese girl you knew. Otherwise, you didn't offer any evidence at all.

It doesn't matter what I am. My tone was just expressive to emphasize objectivity, nothing more. I say these things because I want them fixed. If I didn't care I wouldn't be saying anything about it. Don't attack the messenger. But as a matter of fact, I was not born in the US and English is not my first language. Obviously, I did go to school here. But that doesn't matter much and this is not about me. If you want to make it about me and ignore the well known facts about the public school system because I don't personally comply with your requirements, be my guest.

It matters largely because of the accusations you toss out. Unsubstantiated allegations that lead me to question what kind of evidence you have. I'm not attacking you. I know nothing about you. I am questioning your motivations because of those allegations.

It does matter, because it's very important to see where you're coming from and what has influenced you to form the opinions that you have, and what you take to be true. I'm not ignoring "well known facts," I am asking you to provide them when making an argument. I want to know where you're getting these facts. I want to read the sources. I want to compare them to mine. If I feel they do not take into account certain important and significant issues, I will want to counter them.

From what I mention above. If you don't care about my experiences, look at the test scores. Go look at the the staggering ignorance of high school level students and many comedic anecdotes about it. In one instance, many high school students quizzed didn't know who Thomas Jefferson was and could not name the 2 houses of congress or even the 3 branches of government. Are the Japanese students of equal grade that uninformed about their own government? I doubt it.

It's not that I don't care about your personal experiences. I do. I just haven't yet seen you describe them in any detail. You tell me to "go look at" but you provide nothing for me to look at.

You seem to be quoting some kind of reports in regards to history and government, but you don't back up where you get those ideas. If they happened in your own classes, say that. If they come from studies, post the links or give me the bibliographical data so I can hit the periodical databases or have my parents (professional librarians) get me copies of your sources. It's hard to follow your claims when they lack warrant. Personal experience is warrant, but be prepared for others to counter with their own personal experiences, which also count as warrant.

As for what Japanese know about their own government, I can speak to my personal experience and state that voter apathy is pretty widespread here. The Japan Times often talked about it. I know in conversations with my coworkers and neighbors that I generally know more about the Diet and the parliamentary system then they do. I don't know, because I've never asked, nor done the research, what my students know about their government. However, I will do the research tomorrow, and I will ask around. I will talk to the social studies teachers and find out if I can get ahold of documents talking about this subject. You might be right. You might also be wrong. If you have studies, rather than just your "doubts" I would be happy to examine them.

I know the general differences. Stuff is actually taught there and the system is actually dedicated towards discipline to achieve it.

Depends on what you mean by stuff. Most of the education given in my schools, which are nationally set benchmarks, are heavily, heavily tilted towards passing tests. Primarily these tests are entrance examinations. First to high school, then to college. I would not say that the system, and I am a part of the system you mention, I am cog in its machine, is actually dedicated towards discipline to achieve much beyond passing those tests. Just what do you think my students are learning and why are they learning it?

Ask any Japanese students why they take English, and by far, the largest reason is "because I need to pass an entrance exam." I took French in high school because I wanted to learn an "exotic" language and go to France, which I did. Japanese was not offered, and was a personal hobby. Most of my peers took Spanish because they "had to" no different from most of my Japanese students, but everyone who took French was pretty much like me, since it was a much smaller program, with less classes.

Less creative thinking? Less music and art? You think most public schools in the US are Socratic campuses of thought or orchestra halls and art shops full of highly skilled and dedicated music and art teachers?

Wow. Uhm. Just wow. I had outstanding teachers across the board. In poor districts and wealthy districts. In public schools and private schools. They lead me to see teaching as a worthy goal and to become a teacher myself.

Yes, I do believe there are dedicated music and art teachers all over the US. I have met many of them. Studied under some, worked with others. I went to college with some of them. And even more, I know dedicated English teachers who are creative writers and care passionately for language. I know a science teacher, my chemistry teacher, who today is still teaching in the same school, who meets with me every time I return to the US and shares his thoughts on teaching with me, a young teacher, who could use the advice. They do their best, day in, and day out to provide quality education in a myriad of regions, areas, demographics, with various levels of tax allocations and equipment. Some in facilities that are amazing, some in facilities that are falling apart.

You do American teachers a disservice. I rebuke you.

They're full of cliques who go there mainly to socialize. Japan may be rigid and not value creativity much in schools, but quite frankly that's none of my business. I just know that overall it's better education, if only because it's competent at something other than putting kids together to socialize and keep them out of their parents' way.

Humanity is cliquish by nature. That certainly takes on a whole new meaning in junior high school and high school. There are cliques in Japanese schools. What would make you think there aren't? Socialising is part of the value of school, yes, but if an adolescent really thinks of school as merely for socialising, then he or she not taking responsibility for him or herself. As I said earlier, we will become babysitters, as teachers, for those that do not take responsibility for themselves. We do not want to be. We want those students to enjoy learning for the sake of learning and for the sake of their future, but we can't make them. It's beyond our purview and our ability.

This is just as true of Japanese students as it is for American students. I lost two of my students last year. They didn't graduate... From the ninth grade. They did not study, they dropped out. They couldn't pass entrance exams. They did not go to high school. They have had to try to enter the work force in the midst of a global recession. My schools are small, so two students are a rather big deal. It happens. Everywhere. In every system. Your knowledge of the Japanese system in practice seems slight. Once again, I am curious where your sources are.

You just also described public school teachers in America. If you think otherwise you must either be or acquiescence to teachers union leeches or you must have romped exclusively in yuppie schools, not the average ones.

Uhhh... Yeah. No. American teachers are required to do many, many hours of student teaching and are required to take child psychology and a host of education courses. They must take and pass tests, such as the Praxis, to even qualify to apply for their certification in their state of residence. I am very well acquainted with these procedures (I scored quite highly on my Praxis), and American teachers are required to retrain every couple of years.

I attended two school districts in very poor areas. I attended one in a middle class area. I attended two private schools in very poor areas (both had many low-income students on scholarship, both were Catholic). Only my public high school was in a high-income, tax rich area. I was only there for three years out of my twelve years of education. I had quite a wide ranging group of school experiences.

Part two to follow:

[Tsuwabuki]

I don't think you understood. The paperwork was a joke to her. She didn't neglect any schoolwork. I think it's well known fact among exchange students from certain countries that the experience to American schools is pretty much only social, and perhaps linguistic.

My experience, as I stated, was that my students have a lot more busywork than I did. I also believe they have less analysing. I am sure she did find paperwork to be a joke. So did I. However, if she did not learn skills in critical thinking, which I did learn, especially in English courses with composition (and one of the major reasons I am an English teacher is because of my middle school and high school English teachers), then she will have a tough time getting through life. Even if she does pass entrance examinations. You also have to realise, that Japanese exchange students are not graded in their time out of the Japanese school system. It has no effect. It only matters if they pass their entrance examinations. Linguistically, it will probably help, yes. This does not help establish an argument on the experience of American students in American schools.

This must be the creativity you're talking about. Let me just grab my Hamlet gear and I'll get off the stage.

Actually, I meant I was exiting stage right. Not asking you to do so.

[Salvanas]

I want to comment on the "loss of creativity" in schools that Tyrien brought up.

Personally, I despise artists (Of many kinds), and art critics. Someone who bases their life on such pointless things and brings nothing to the society just angers me.

And you'll be surprised. You say that creativity is diminishing, but I see a load more students leaning towards the arts as careers. Why? Because they fail at the other more daunting courses.

I'm not saying artists don't bring anything to the world. Because they do, but that effect is minimal. We have no need of artists. We don't require 500 people trying to draw paintings for us. We require teachers, doctors, lawyers, and many others.

I've always said, and always kept to this saying.

"People go into the arts because they failed at the more challenging career choices. People who fail at art, become photographers."

People WILL find that offensive, and I couldn't give two s***s to be honest.
This is my view, one I will never change. Artists will always be at the bottom of the grid.

Note: Artists as in photographers, and painting. There are some arts, like literacy, which is needed in life.

[xyzone]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I did my student teaching in urban, low-income areas.

Which means you left since there's nothing to do with those places as they are.

Well, now. You didn't back up your comments with personal experience. You did not offer statistics, the "widely known poor test scores," examples of "wide spread ignorance of college level students" and I'm not sure where you're getting this "just plain evident outlook" of America's youth. As far as I can tell, you mentioned one Japanese girl you knew. Otherwise, you didn't offer any evidence at all.

I can assure you not many people in a general American forum would backup your viewpoint that the public schools are working and headed in the right direction. Except, maybe, in a teacher's union forum.

Unsubstantiated allegations that lead me to question what kind of evidence you have. I'm not attacking you. I know nothing about you. I am questioning your motivations because of those allegations.

Well, you know my motivations now that I've stated them. I really don't have either the energy nor the desire to pursue a futile and tedious excursion to prove myself to you. Maybe had I been educated better I wouldn't be so cynical and lazy.

It does matter, because it's very important to see where you're coming from and what has influenced you to form the opinions that you have, and what you take to be true.

I already told you where I got my viewpoint. My experiences in school, statistical data of test score comparisons. I saw total idiots starting college, some who seemed to belong more in middle school. Spoon feeding union teachers in prior schooling who are just there because it's a gig, not paid well, not trained well. Students who failed work got passed under the lowest minimum requirements. I saw it, I lived it. Even by the state's own standards, massive failure in testing, yet no consequences to the school for it. Nothing like the charter type schools in Europe. Keep in mind, I am talking about Texas, among the worst school systems in the country. Yet it's not an isolated case by far.

You want to just dismiss all that by telling me you know better than what I saw with my own eyes or that mine is an isolated event, or that people I've talked to from California and other states who also went to public school said the same thing and agreed with me, for pete's sake? Ok. Whatever.

I just haven't yet seen you describe them in any detail.

There's no need to go into detail. My comments were anecdotal. Take them or leave them. I already said it all in a nutshell. Everyone I've had a discussion about it with sees the same thing. It's almost common knowledge how worthless public schools are, even if some want to pretend like nothing is wrong. Typically the school staff. It's basically like telling a DEA agent that marijuana has been scientifically proven to be harmless. They'll throw bureaucracy in your face.

I told you they are little more than social events, and perhaps even social engineering. I learned near to nothing in school. I actually lost my interest in pursuing a high career in biology there. I learned more in 1 month of browsing the internet after high school than my whole time attending. The kids are apathetic and cynical, the teachers, such as yourself, are deluded and detached. Nothing of much academic consequence ever occurs in the average public school. So, yes, "Go look at it". If you don't want to, I don't care. Believe whatever helps you feel comfortable.

If they come from studies, post the links or give me the bibliographical data so I can hit the periodical databases or have my parents (professional librarians) get me copies of your sources.

I don't keep up with the latest failure of the school systems nor would I remember the specific sources. Most if it was in periodicals from a while back. Go research the matter yourself and I'm sure you'll find plenty of material. Or just call me a liar and move on. I really don't care either way. I'm not going to get into a futile and tedious internet link wargame. I know for a fact that the public school systems in the US are generally a government monopoly, a bureaucracy that is set up to answer to no one for performance. Do you deny this is true, or are you under some impression that all piss poor schools suffer some sort of funding or administrative consequences related to academic performance in any way?

Depends on what you mean by stuff. Most of the education given in my schools, which are nationally set benchmarks, are heavily, heavily tilted towards passing tests.

I don't know your system and like I said it's really none of my business. What I do know is the system where I was in, and I do know that it's not tilted towards passing any tests. Even by the state's own tests they perform poorly, at least in states like Texas.

I'll tell you what it is primarily tilted towards. Kids showing up. That's it. I know people who went to court for being absent. This is because the schools lose funding per absence if they stack up. All while they teach nothing. It's mere and simple bureaucracy to warehouse kids.

I had outstanding teachers across the board. In poor districts and wealthy districts. In public schools and private schools. They lead me to see teaching as a worthy goal and to become a teacher myself.

Then like I told you, you either have been away for quite a while or are looking/remembering through rose tinted specs. Maybe things went to hell since you left? There are always good and determined teachers. I observed it myself. There was at least one math teacher who I had some year. He left after one year, probably much like you did.

They do their best, day in, and day out

They're working in a flawed and failed system, so it doesn't matter. You make it seem like magnificent teachers are lining up for every school in the country. That's a laughable image. I told you there are well meaning and individually skilled teachers, but nobody can do anything with a garbage system alone. The filler isn't good teachers. A good teacher to enter a crap school district is pissing in the wind. The weight of the mediocrity is unsurmountable. The only possible solution is to dismantle entire school districts-- everything except the buildings, and rebuild them with a system that works such as charter schools. It won't be done in time, if ever, and that is what sucks.

Some in facilities that are amazing, some in facilities that are falling apart.

Doesn't matter what the buildings look like if the system is flawed and does not work. Although the ones that are falling apart are simply a double whammy. Both a waste of time and depressing dumps, not to mention sometimes violent; at least mine weren't, and that's the only positive thing I can say about them.

You do American teachers a disservice. I rebuke you.

You do American youth and future a disservice.

What would make you think there aren't?

I never said there weren't cliques in all schools nor that socializing isn't important. I said it shouldn't be the main reason to be there nor the only one, as it often is.

This is just as true of Japanese students as it is for American students. I lost two of my students last year. They didn't graduate...

Well that's probably because you have standards there. Here they would have sent him/her to court and forced him/her to attend, just so him/her could show up and not affect the farce of a system that only rewards the schools with attendance records and not anything else.

No. American teachers are required to do many, many hours of student teaching and are required to take child psychology and a host of education courses.

Is that a fact? I guess someone forgot to tell that to the French teacher I had in 10th grade. He was a sub who stayed the whole year because the regular teacher had left on maternity leave. Yeah, he was a real magnificent teacher, not just some guy telling kids to open a book and read while they chatted the whole class. It also only happened that one time in my special case school, not anywhere else in the area. An aberration, really. Except for all those other crappy teachers who basically did the same thing most of the year.

They must take and pass tests, such as the Praxis, to even qualify to apply for their certification in their state of residence. I am very well acquainted with these procedures (I scored quite highly on my Praxis), and American teachers are required to retrain every couple of years.

Even substitute teachers? That one in French was the only one I knew of for sure, but others felt just as bad. Who's to say? I didn't have access to the teacher's qualifications.

I attended two school districts in very poor areas. I attended one in a middle class area. I attended two private schools in very poor areas (both had many low-income students on scholarship, both were Catholic). Only my public high school was in a high-income, tax rich area. I was only there for three years out of my twelve years of education. I had quite a wide ranging group of school experiences.

This paragraph alone is quite telling. 3 years in several schools, eh? Same as every other new teacher with high qualifications who starts up in a crappy school they don't like. They leave, as they should.

You also have to realise, that Japanese exchange students are not graded in their time out of the Japanese school system.

Well I would imagine so because it would be quite a worthless achievement if it was in an American public school. Much less in Texas. where George W. was governor for a long time, and then voted for president twice by most. And later same for Palin as VP.