Toyota Recall

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I think the biggest problem is that US dealers aren`t required to know much of anything, and that there doesn`t seem to be any regulation on them. As long as they sell the cars that is all that matters. So the behavior of idiotic salespeople is reflecting badly back on the company as a whole. If people are reporting the problem but the dealers are saying "I`ve never heard of that!" and not even bothering to report it to corporate... It`s a dealer (franchised in the US) mismanagement issue, not a corporate one.

Seems to be true.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Are you trying to tell me that the media is only alerting people of the recall and telling them that if they experience an issue like that (with any car, by the way - not just a Toyota) to shift to neutral / cut the engine?

Believe it or not, some people just don't know what to do when I car behaves this way.

Toyota delayed and doesn't have the means of doing this.

Without the Media Toyota would never gets its message out or sweep it under the carpet a bit longer so THEY could of been the ones that announced that the gas pedal etc sticks. ABC News was the one that brought this to the public eye continuously until they had video of some guy pulling his car into a dealer with tires spinning and then put out of gear and the engine running at 100%.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You must be seeing something different than I, as all the reports *I* have seen are talking about "how to protect yourself in a runaway TOYOTA" - "Would you buy an unsafe Toyota for your children?!" "Toyota cover up and conspiracy!" "Toyota isn`t stopping this fast enough!" "Do you have a Toyota death machine in your driveway?!" etc etc.

Depite what you go to on the Internet, if you watch the evening national or local news you mostly get what Toyota is trying to convey to the public when asked by the news agency. But frankly it WAS NOT fast enough, and Toyota stone walled.

Frankly Toyota should get some of these headlines and simply expect this. ALL OF THEM ARE TRUE!!!

"how to protect yourself in a runaway Toyota" IS very valid ... BECAUSE THESE CARS ARE DANGEROUS.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Reporting a recall and informing consumers of the danger is one thing, jumping up and down with glee and telling people they`re all going to DIE if they so much as walk in front of a Toyota (another media thing I saw - apparently they`re so likely to just suddenly accelerate that you should make sure not to walk in front of a parked one. )

Well you know what, Toyota ignored first, then ID'd the problem wrong, then reacted slowly when they did know the problem while still selling vehicles. And as you can see from the above article about Steve from Apple computer cruise control malfunction, there may be another problem. I love the part where he could not get through to Toyota to tell them what happened so he had to go to the media.

SO WHAT. Toyota deserves it. They had a chance to find the problem during the floor mat investigation, they blew it off and more people died until ABC enlarged their investigation.

People are dead, families ruined and having them BBQed in the media would be nice to see.
Same for ANY product manufacturer that kills people and how they reacted.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Yes - But I would go and have the fix done. Which is what media should be encouraging people to do - not scream and treat cars like wild beasts or hunt for conspiracies to "kill Americans" (another gem from US news). Or a long one. It depends.

I think media is doing this. Toyota surely wasn'tt. As you can tell from the recent articles, you can even contact Toyota.

You exagurate with bad taste that there is main stream media out there that are claiming there are conspiracies out there to "kill Americans" in a political nationalized sense. Please direct me to this main stream media source so I can read the comments on it.

[IamKira]

what the hell? false.. you downshift successively putting strain on the engine in the case of a runaway car. and if possible, you shove that baby right up against the curb... weaving is also a good technique making you cover more ground than you would in a straight line
and if you by chance have an automatic (y would you though? manual is better in every way! ) you stay in gear and use the e-brake lever along with the e-brake so it doesn't lock up.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by IamKira

what the hell? false.. you downshift successively putting strain on the engine in the case of a runaway car. and if possible, you shove that baby right up against the curb... weaving is also a good technique making you cover more ground than you would in a straight line
and if you by chance have an automatic (y would you though? manual is better in every way! ) you stay in gear and use the e-brake lever along with the e-brake so it doesn't lock up.

haha
Try this at 100+Mph with the gas pedal stuck to floor weaving (most likely flipping the vehicle) and as your transmission catches fire.

[clintjm]

Questions Grow on Japanese Manufacturing Quality - WSJ.com

Good article on the topic.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Believe it or not, some people just don't know what to do when I car behaves this way.

Toyota delayed and doesn't have the means of doing this.

Not having the means and delaying are completely different things. But there is also a difference between conveying information and fear mongering.

Frankly Toyota should get some of these headlines and simply expect this. ALL OF THEM ARE TRUE!!!

"how to protect yourself in a runaway Toyota" IS very valid ... BECAUSE THESE CARS ARE DANGEROUS.

How about "How to protect yourself in a runaway VEHICLE"? Because you know, my friend was in a wreck with a stuck pedal in a Ford - years and years ago, but the point is the information shouldn`t be Toyota specific. It ISN`T. (She cut the engine, the power steering and power brakes went off and she couldn`t control or stop the car.)

Either way, I find it kind of silly to have seen reports acting like EVERY Toyota car on the road is a cage of death, and that everyone who even looks in the direction of one is going to be run down. Media thrives on fear and shock. No different in this case.

Well you know what, Toyota ignored first, then ID'd the problem wrong, then reacted slowly when they did know the problem while still selling vehicles. And as you can see from the above article about Steve from Apple computer cruise control malfunction, there may be another problem. I love the part where he could not get through to Toyota to tell them what happened so he had to go to the media.

Lack of immediate action does NOT equal "ignoring". That`s the reaction of the dealers. If there is a POSSIBLE problem, not confirmed, not known if it`s a complete and total fluke - you don`t announce it. You try to figure it out as quickly as possible and take action. They didn`t ID the problem wrong - they were just extremely unlucky that there were two separate problems happening at the same time. They identified ONE of them before the other (the floor mat issue) and took action on it first. Should they have ignored that problem and waited until they knew the other? That would be stupidity.

With Steve, I really have to cringe as he is doing something that will cause an issue with almost ALL the electronic cruise control systems out there. The car does not instantly speed up when you push the button - the Prius isn`t a sports car, it takes a few seconds to react. Push the button again, and again, impatiently because the car isn`t hitting the speed you want... and what do you know, you want the car to go 80, but you`ve knocked the setting up to 95... And then the car starts picking up speed, and you panic because it`s more than you wanted. Just pressing the down button, again, will not immediately slow the car down as it doesn`t brake for you... If you`ve picked up momentum speed continues to rise temporarily even without the engine.

Either way, even Steve admitted there was no real safety issue because - as normal - braking works and turns the cruise control off. The cruise control safety radar also worked normally.

I also love the fact that he complains about not being given special priority service based on who he is. Even though he says HIS phone dropped the calls, etc. What an ego!
Guess you also missed the follow up where it turns out he actually had gotten through and that Toyota has his car now and is running it through tons of tests.

SO WHAT. Toyota deserves it. They had a chance to find the problem during the floor mat investigation, they blew it off and more people died until ABC enlarged their investigation.

They DID find the problem. The investigation didn`t stop. They just took action on the problem they found FIRST - the floor mats. I`m sure they were crossing their fingers that it was the only issue, but they certainly didn`t stop at the floor mats. I really do not get this big uproar about acting on the first problem they found, first, when they found it... and then acting on the second problem they found - second, when they found it. Should they have waited and ignored the first problem until they had found all of them? Should they have let other people potentially die because they hadn`t found ALL the problems yet?

People are dead, families ruined and having them BBQed in the media would be nice to see.
Same for ANY product manufacturer that kills people and how they reacted.

Exactly. This is EXACTLY why a company doesn`t make an announcement until it`s SURE of what is going on. You can`t go back later and say "Turns out that possible danger we mentioned was a complete fluke" or "we later found out that the driver had poured glue down the shaft!" That doesn`t make the top page - even if it turns out there was no problem the damage of one announcement is bad enough.
Let`s say it was just one single batch of cars from one single manufacturing day - if you announce that you recognize a dangerous issue in your cars - but don`t yet know for sure what it is... Do you think people are going to be around to hear you announce a couple of weeks/months later that you found it was only 500 cars that had the potential problem and all the rest are totally safe?

You exagurate with bad taste that there is main stream media out there that are claiming there are conspiracies out there to "kill Americans" in a political nationalized sense. Please direct me to this main stream media source so I can read the comments on it.

Remember, I`m in Japan. Clips of US news are just what I see clipped on TV here. I`m sure it`s just one tiny program, with one crazy newscaster... but it`s still stupidity. And there are people out there who will happily slurp up the latest fear craze.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Not having the means and delaying are completely different things. But there is also a difference between conveying information and fear mongering.

How about "How to protect yourself in a runaway VEHICLE"? Because you know, my friend was in a wreck with a stuck pedal in a Ford - years and years ago, but the point is the information shouldn`t be Toyota specific. It ISN`T. (She cut the engine, the power steering and power brakes went off and she couldn`t control or stop the car.)

Either way, I find it kind of silly to have seen reports acting like EVERY Toyota car on the road is a cage of death, and that everyone who even looks in the direction of one is going to be run down. Media thrives on fear and shock. No different in this case.

Lack of immediate action does NOT equal "ignoring". That`s the reaction of the dealers. If there is a POSSIBLE problem, not confirmed, not known if it`s a complete and total fluke - you don`t announce it. You try to figure it out as quickly as possible and take action. They didn`t ID the problem wrong - they were just extremely unlucky that there were two separate problems happening at the same time. They identified ONE of them before the other (the floor mat issue) and took action on it first. Should they have ignored that problem and waited until they knew the other? That would be stupidity.

With Steve, I really have to cringe as he is doing something that will cause an issue with almost ALL the electronic cruise control systems out there. The car does not instantly speed up when you push the button - the Prius isn`t a sports car, it takes a few seconds to react. Push the button again, and again, impatiently because the car isn`t hitting the speed you want... and what do you know, you want the car to go 80, but you`ve knocked the setting up to 95... And then the car starts picking up speed, and you panic because it`s more than you wanted. Just pressing the down button, again, will not immediately slow the car down as it doesn`t brake for you... If you`ve picked up momentum speed continues to rise temporarily even without the engine.

Either way, even Steve admitted there was no real safety issue because - as normal - braking works and turns the cruise control off. The cruise control safety radar also worked normally.

I also love the fact that he complains about not being given special priority service based on who he is. Even though he says HIS phone dropped the calls, etc. What an ego!
Guess you also missed the follow up where it turns out he actually had gotten through and that Toyota has his car now and is running it through tons of tests.

They DID find the problem. The investigation didn`t stop. They just took action on the problem they found FIRST - the floor mats. I`m sure they were crossing their fingers that it was the only issue, but they certainly didn`t stop at the floor mats. I really do not get this big uproar about acting on the first problem they found, first, when they found it... and then acting on the second problem they found - second, when they found it. Should they have waited and ignored the first problem until they had found all of them? Should they have let other people potentially die because they hadn`t found ALL the problems yet?


Remember, I`m in Japan. Clips of US news are just what I see clipped on TV here. I`m sure it`s just one tiny program, with one crazy newscaster... but it`s still stupidity. And there are people out there who will happily slurp up the latest fear craze.

Toyota had the means... its called the mass media.
Sugar coating headlines do not make people take the time to watch or read it.

The information provided about how to stop the recalled vehicles is Toyota specific. Why would they confuse people in the same report how to stop different vehicles in different situations with different problems.



Steve only got attention from Toyota AFTER the media got involved. Think of how many people like Steve are out there that can't get on National TV.
(I do like how the I-phone dropped his call though).
Cruise control taking your car to excess speed without the driver asking for it is a safety issue - despite what Steve might have been quoted as saying.
Why do you demonize someone with a reputable reputation as crying wolf?

Lack of immediate attention IS ignoring the problem. I'm not saying call for a recall on one or two cases, but seriously, determine what the real problem is and don't have CEO come out and say it is a definite on the floor mats, there isn't a safety issue, case closed. There is not a defense to Toyota lack of *immediate* attention and the fact they said case closed when they said floor mats. ABC had to drag Toyota to the fact, not Toyota.

Yes, I remember you are in Japan. Stop calling this a Media Hyperbole if all you are watching is one tiny program with one crazy newscaster. Please direct me to the media you have seen that is calling all Toyota vehicles death traps. You write:
"Either way, I find it kind of silly to have seen reports acting like EVERY Toyota car on the road is a cage of death, and that everyone who even looks in the direction of one is going to be run down. Media thrives on fear and shock. No different in this case."

Please direct me to these reports or links.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Toyota had the means... its called the mass media.
Sugar coating headlines do not make people take the time to watch or read it.

But blowing them out of proportion is also only going to get people to panic rather than looking at the situation calmly and taking proper action.

The information provided about how to stop the recalled vehicles is Toyota specific. Why would they confuse people in the same report how to stop different vehicles in different situations with different problems.

No it isn`t. Toyota vehicles aren`t so amazingly different that directions on how to stop one is different than that for others. Even the push button ignition isn`t unique to Toyota. Stopping a car that has an acceleration issue - or one with failed brakes - falls into the common sense category of information. Everyone should know this - it shouldn`t be directed only at Toyotas. But fear mongering is what sells...

Cruise control taking your car to excess speed without the driver asking for it is a safety issue - despite what Steve might have been quoted as saying.
Why do you demonize someone with a reputable reputation as crying wolf?

I`m not demonizing him. I never said it wasn`t a safety issue - but apparently that is a subject of opinion. It`s a known issue with electronic cruise control systems and should be fixed. The thing is, it`s not limited to Toyota or the Prius. BMW has the same issue in some of their cars. (FIL does, and was told by the dealer that it`s a "sporty driving feature"...)
And by the way - you are asking for it to take you to excessive speed. The problem is that the system makes it really easy for you to accidentally ask for that, but not easy (short of hitting the brakes) to change the speed setting to a lower one. It`s a design flaw, no doubt, but not a "runaway Toyota!"

Lack of immediate attention IS ignoring the problem. I'm not saying call for a recall on one or two cases, but seriously, determine what the real problem is and don't have CEO come out and say it is a definite on the floor mats, there isn't a safety issue, case closed. There is not a defense to Toyota lack of *immediate* attention and the fact they said case closed when they said floor mats. ABC had to drag Toyota to the fact, not Toyota.

Lack of immediate recall isn`t lack of immediate attention. I guess the wording on that could be better... You can have action and attention behind the scenes without calling for a recall day one if you don`t know what the problem is. I tried to explain this. You don`t come out and say "Yeah, it looks like there is a problem but we don`t know yet what it is! Sorry!" - you wait until you do know the problem and then announce it. Corporate culture sucks, but it`s not just Toyota. If every company announced every complaint they received without knowing for sure what caused it, without checking it was really their fault, etc, there would be so much crap flooding the air that no one would bother listening.
It would have been better if they`d figured out the other problem first, or the two issues at the same time. But it would have been silly of them to say "Yeah, this isn`t the issue, but we`re just going to recall mats anyway." Unfortunately this has come back to bite them.

Please direct me to these reports or links.

The "single program" bit was referring specifically to the "conspiracy to kill Americans" silliness. The rest - do a search on Google. Shouldn`t be too hard to find enough examples. I`m not going to go through my history to hunt down the specific articles I have read since this fiasco started.
Of course, if you agree that every single Toyota on the road is an out of control death trap, then I guess you might not think anything of the articles.

[MMM]

Clint, why the torches and pitchforks? It sounds like you not only are relishing in Toyota's issue, but would rather see them fail than fix the problem.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But blowing them out of proportion is also only going to get people to panic rather than looking at the situation calmly and taking proper action.

I think its time to panic when a company refuses the acknowledge what a national news agency such as ABC is telling the nation... cars are running out of control and original Toyota Stone walled: SEE SLIDE SHOW FIRST LINK BOTTOM OF PAGE. It was originally played down when it was though come to florishen that there are millions of these cars on the road.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

No it isn`t. Toyota vehicles aren`t so amazingly different that directions on how to stop one is different than that for others. Even the push button ignition isn`t unique to Toyota. Stopping a car that has an acceleration issue - or one with failed brakes - falls into the common sense category of information. Everyone should know this - it shouldn`t be directed only at Toyotas. But fear mongering is what sells...

I ask again: Where is this fear mongering you are speaking of?
Everyone should know how to control a car with a stuck accelerator but they don't. The media had to provide this little tid bit of life saving information, Toyota didn't because they didn't acknowledge the problem.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I`m not demonizing him. I never said it wasn`t a safety issue - but apparently that is a subject of opinion. It`s a known issue with electronic cruise control systems and should be fixed. The thing is, it`s not limited to Toyota or the Prius. BMW has the same issue in some of their cars. (FIL does, and was told by the dealer that it`s a "sporty driving feature"...)
And by the way - you are asking for it to take you to excessive speed. The problem is that the system makes it really easy for you to accidentally ask for that, but not easy (short of hitting the brakes) to change the speed setting to a lower one. It`s a design flaw, no doubt, but not a "runaway Toyota!"

If the cruise control jumps you from 60 to 100 without the driver doing it, then its a runaway car plain and simple. This may be the case with Steve Apple's model. A software bug.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Lack of immediate recall isn`t lack of immediate attention. I guess the wording on that could be better... You can have action and attention behind the scenes without calling for a recall day one if you don`t know what the problem is. I tried to explain this. You don`t come out and say "Yeah, it looks like there is a problem but we don`t know yet what it is! Sorry!" - you wait until you do know the problem and then announce it. Corporate culture sucks, but it`s not just Toyota. If every company announced every complaint they received without knowing for sure what caused it, without checking it was really their fault, etc, there would be so much crap flooding the air that no one would bother listening.
It would have been better if they`d figured out the other problem first, or the two issues at the same time. But it would have been silly of them to say "Yeah, this isn`t the issue, but we`re just going to recall mats anyway." Unfortunately this has come back to bite them.

I want the company to tell me when there is a problem of problems that can kill me or someone else, simple as that. Then I can decide if I want to risk driving it or not or endager other people's lives. Its fine if you don't know what the problem stems from but TELL ME IF THE CAR COULD GO OUT OF CONTROL.

It wouldn't be silly, it would be cautious at the expense of the company for their customers.

recall no, admit problem yes

Originally Posted by Nyororin

The "single program" bit was referring specifically to the "conspiracy to kill Americans" silliness. The rest - do a search on Google. Shouldn`t be too hard to find enough examples. I`m not going to go through my history to hunt down the specific articles I have read since this fiasco started.
Of course, if you agree that every single Toyota on the road is an out of control death trap, then I guess you might not think anything of the articles.

No. I'm calling BS on this. If there are so many, direct me to only two. The go google it yourself thing won't cut it for me when you write up this up as media hyperbole. If you have time to write all of this then you got time to direct me to two of these articles.

I'm asking YOU for the articles/news that said "every single" Toyota on the road is out of control death trap. DONT turn this around and try to make it look like I'm saying this.

You call this recall a media hyberbole, when I call it the media doing its job and Toyota asleep at the wheel.

Terror on the Roads: Runaway Toyotas - ABC News

Toyota Recall: New Questions About What the Motor Company Knew and When - ABC News

Toyota President Denies Cover-Up - ABC News

I like the idea of having a law like Japan does (as posted in this thread from my post of the wall street journal online) that its required by law for companies to report a product that has caused injury or death by how many counts to the government so they can get the word out.

Questions Grow on Japanese Manufacturing Quality - WSJ.com