Toyota Recall

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Clint, why the torches and pitchforks? It sounds like you not only are relishing in Toyota's issue, but would rather see them fail than fix the problem.

Stop being a bully.
Where you are getting that I'm relishing in it?
Where are you getting that I want them to fail or give up rather than fix the problem?
Think before you write sir.

I'm angry at the Toyota situation now the more I read about it and the statistics on how many lives destroyed while the company drags their feet.

They refused to acknowledge the problem at first, gave a luke warm, incorrect fix (floor mats) and closed the case, more people died, more cars sold on the road with the same defect, more will probably die because of the delay. CEOs and management response to this is unappologetic and disgusting. I have little forgiveness for companies like this despite their past successes and service.

[clintjm]

New problem. Now complaints in the US and Japan.
Toyota Hit by Over 100 Prius Brake Complaints - Auto - FOXNews.com

[Nyororin]

I ask again: Where is this fear mongering you are speaking of?
Everyone should know how to control a car with a stuck accelerator but they don't. The media had to provide this little tid bit of life saving information, Toyota didn't because they didn't acknowledge the problem.

Fear mongering is jumping on the info that there is a slight risk, and presenting info as if the risk is much greater, the numbers much larger than they really are.

I am getting tired of repeating myself, but information on how to stop a car with a stuck accelerator is important. The things is ... It is not limited to Toyotas. It should not be worded "to stop a Toyota".

If the cruise control jumps you from 60 to 100 without the driver doing it, then its a runaway car plain and simple. This may be the case with Steve Apple's model. A software bug.

Apparently you missed what I wrote. It is easy to press the button more than necessary due to the delayed response and set your car for 100. The car is doing what it is told. The problem is that it isn`t easy to lower the setting (short of hitting the brakes), which is indeed a problem that should be fixed.

Your example is like a manufacturer not recalling bad yogurt they sell because they aren't sure the problem is from one particular style of yogurt of a certain brand. That fact being there are surely some yogurt is killing people but we aren't sure if it is Blue berry or Bannana. So we'll wait.

The key here is that the company knew that it was their yogurt in their own packaging that was at fault. There are so many things a driver could do, so many things that could screw up a car that aren`t the company`s fault, etc, that you can`t look at one or two accidents and say "Our cars are definitely causing this!!"
Someone dying after eating a yogurt is a little different than someone having an accident and saying "It wasn`t my fault! It was the car!". I don`t think there are many people out there who want to admit it if it was indeed their fault. People don`t want to admit their own mistakes. In this case it WAS the car, but it isn`t as clear cut as eating a yogurt and dropping over dead. You don`t get tons of people blaming any death on yogurt - however, you DO get tons of people blaming cars for everything. Sorting through a couple of deaths possibly caused by yogurt isn`t that hard - you might have a handful of reports with one or two that are bogus. With a car, you will have thousands of people blaming the car and only a handful of real ones... Hunting for those isn`t an easy or quick task. Especially if you say "there is a potential problem" - and everyone everywhere leaps to hopefully get a settlement by blaming every accident on that.

Corporations suck. They`re big and they`re slow.

I dug through Google news, and it`s impossible to find the articles as there are literally 10000+ items that fit the criteria. Skimming through every single one of them to find the ones I read would take MUCH MUCH longer than typing this up. Happily, it seems that eHow (One I can bring up quickly as someone who knows I drive a Toyota mailed me the link for my safety) has changed their "How to stop a runaway Toyota" into something a little more universal (the original is still cached on Google though)... No wait, they`ve changed it to this. "Anticipate a runaway situation whenever driving a Toyota vehicle" - sounds like all Toyota cars to me. (Nevermind that the article suggests doing something advised against by Toyota and pretty much every one else - pumping the brakes.)

Either way - I should have known better than to bother discussing this with you, as I`ve seen how close to talking to a brick wall it is when you`ve made up your mind on something. You`re out to crucify Toyota for this and nothing is going to make a difference.

The fact is, there is a 0.001% chance you`ll experience the problem without doing the recall fix (which everyone should) and a 0.0004% chance you will be in an accident because of it. Everyone should know how to stop a runaway car, but it is nowhere near the level of danger it has been presented as. As I have said SO MANY TIMES in this thread, painting a problem as much larger than it is counts as fear mongering - and fear mongering sells.

ETA;

New problem. Now complaints in the US and Japan.

It`s a sucky trait of ABS. When regenerative braking switches over to ABS, you have to push harder on the brake - if you don`t, it feels like the brakes suddenly weakened. According to Japanese news, they`ve already built a fix to even out the pressure levels in the brake which has been installed in the cars produced this year. It is not a new problem and was the same in the previous Prius. And yes, I`ve felt this one first hand. Press harder on the brake and it works normally.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Fear mongering is jumping on the info that there is a slight risk, and presenting info as if the risk is much greater, the numbers much larger than they really are.

I am getting tired of repeating myself, but information on how to stop a car with a stuck accelerator is important. The things is ... It is not limited to Toyotas. It should not be worded "to stop a Toyota".

What are you talking about, did I miss something? what other car mfr has this problem right now? "To stop a Toyota" is not fear mongering.. its a plain and simple fact for Toyota right now. You seem to have a problem with that.
Its not fear mongering ITS A FACT.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Apparently you missed what I wrote. It is easy to press the button more than necessary due to the delayed response and set your car for 100. The car is doing what it is told. The problem is that it isn`t easy to lower the setting (short of hitting the brakes), which is indeed a problem that should be fixed.

Nope... the car isn't doing what its told, its doing what the software tells it to do. The software appears flawed. Bottom line... car takes off when user doesn't want to.....
FAIL BOAT. PERIOD.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You don`t get tons of people blaming any death on yogurt - however, you DO get tons of people blaming cars for everything. Sorting through a couple of deaths possibly caused by yogurt isn`t that hard - you might have a handful of reports with one or two that are bogus. With a car, you will have thousands of people blaming the car and only a handful of real ones... Hunting for those isn`t an easy or quick task. Especially if you say "there is a potential problem" - and everyone everywhere leaps to hopefully get a settlement by blaming every accident on that.

Maybe so, but ABC and not Toyota was able to sort through the complaints and find out for themselves there was a problem.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Corporations suck. They`re big and they`re slow.

Yeah, and Toyota is sucking big time right now.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I dug through Google news, and it`s impossible to find the articles as there are literally 10000+ items that fit the criteria. Skimming through every single one of them to find the ones I read would take MUCH MUCH longer than typing this up.

Just want some of the hyperbole media you speak of or the "conspiracy" articles you got on your soap box about.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Happily, it seems that eHow (One I can bring up quickly as someone who knows I drive a Toyota mailed me the link for my safety) has changed their "How to stop a runaway Toyota" into something a little more universal (the original is still cached on Google though)... No wait, they`ve changed it to this. "Anticipate a runaway situation whenever driving a Toyota vehicle" - sounds like all Toyota cars to me. (Nevermind that the article suggests doing something advised against by Toyota and pretty much every one else - pumping the brakes.)

#1. The e-how article is not mass media. That isn't even media. They are user submitted articles on how to fix things.
#2. That only one article.
#3. ehow shouldn't even show up in google news.
#4. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate how the headlines on this were worded.
I just don't think they can fit all the recalled models and years of affected vehicles in one headline sentence. Frankly the people looking for information on how to properly stop their affected Toyota is going to be looking for Toyota in the headline.

Come on, I really want to see the media hyberbole about how "americans are being killed by Toyotas" and its a conspiracy" plaster all over the net. And how the media is so unfair on how Toyota handled the situation... etc.

There isn't a media hyperbole. Its mass media at its finest and Toyota at its worst.
You exhagurated and I'm calling you on this.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Either way - I should have known better than to bother discussing this with you, as I`ve seen how close to talking to a brick wall it is when you`ve made up your mind on something.

Yet you have to have a reply. No. Nothing like yourself. Back at you.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You`re out to crucify Toyota for this and nothing is going to make a difference.

I give what is due when a company fails at this level and attempts to sweep it under the rug at first and does a piss poor attempt at solving the problem and call it quits until the media goes back again to bring up the issue.

You enrage me that you either defend this behaviour or blame the media for calling them on it.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

The fact is, there is a 0.001% chance you`ll experience the problem without doing the recall fix (which everyone should) and a 0.0004% chance you will be in an accident because of it. Everyone should know how to stop a runaway car, but it is nowhere near the level of danger it has been presented as. As I have said SO MANY TIMES in this thread, painting a problem as much larger than it is counts as fear mongering - and fear mongering sells.

did those stats come from Toyota? With millions of these cars on the road with this problem, this IS a SERIOUS issue and problem and will be on the road for many years to come. Statistically with 300 some millions people in the states and a portion of them on the road and driving the affected Toyotas, AND having an accident and ruining a family is a small number in comparison to the population, but still, even a handful cripled or dead BECAUSE of refusal of acknowledgment, negligence, greed, or just out right laziness is unforgivable.



Tell those statistics to the ruined families.
You are utterly heartless on the matter.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

ETA;
It`s a sucky trait of ABS. When regenerative braking switches over to ABS, you have to push harder on the brake - if you don`t, it feels like the brakes suddenly weakened. According to Japanese news, they`ve already built a fix to even out the pressure levels in the brake which has been installed in the cars produced this year. It is not a new problem and was the same in the previous Prius. And yes, I`ve felt this one first hand. Press harder on the brake and it works normally.

Luckily the mass media is involved more here now in the states so that we are all starting to hear about it. How many accidents related to bad brakes does there have to be before Toyota decides they will fix last year's model?

Are they fear mongering by reporting on this?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Stop being a bully.
Where you are getting that I'm relishing in it?
Where are you getting that I want them to fail or give up rather than fix the problem?
Think before you write sir.

I'm angry at the Toyota situation now the more I read about it and the statistics on how many lives destroyed while the company drags their feet.

They refused to acknowledge the problem at first, gave a luke warm, incorrect fix (floor mats) and closed the case, more people died, more cars sold on the road with the same defect, more will probably die because of the delay. CEOs and management response to this is unappologetic and disgusting. I have little forgiveness for companies like this despite their past successes and service.

Bully? C'mon, don't suddenly get thin skin.

It is statements like this that make me feel like you are relishing in it. Obviously this is the internet, but it is the sense I get:

Originally Posted by clintjm

Depite what you go to on the Internet, if you watch the evening national or local news you mostly get what Toyota is trying to convey to the public when asked by the news agency. But frankly it WAS NOT fast enough, and Toyota stone walled.

Frankly Toyota should get some of these headlines and simply expect this. ALL OF THEM ARE TRUE!!!

"how to protect yourself in a runaway Toyota" IS very valid ... BECAUSE THESE CARS ARE DANGEROUS.

Those are your words. Here are some more:

Originally Posted by clintjm

People are dead, families ruined and having them BBQed in the media would be nice to see.
Same for ANY product manufacturer that kills people and how they reacted.

You say directly you want to see them BBQed in the media. I call that relishing.

I am just curious about all the deaths and lives ruined in this recall, as the KYODO news I am about to quote from today's Japan times says there have been 14 complaints in Japan, including one accident that led to two people slightly injured, and of the 100 complaints received by the NHTSA for the Prius, included two accidents that led to injuries. In the articles I am looking at right now, I am not seeing a death count, and it seems like that would be included if they are going to talk about injuries.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by clintjm

Yeah, and Toyota is sucking big time right now.

did those stats come from Toyota? With millions of these cars on the road with this problem, this IS a SERIOUS issue and problem and will be on the road for many years to come. Statistically with 300 some millions people in the states and a portion of them on the road and driving the affected Toyotas, AND having an accident and ruining a family is a small number in comparison to the population, but still, even a handful cripled or dead BECAUSE of refusal of acknowledgment, negligence, greed, or just out right laziness is unforgivable.

Tell those statistics to the ruined families.
You are utterly heartless on the matter.

Clint, I think you need to get a little less personal in your arguments here. We are all adults talking about a car recall. I am not sure why you are so emotioanlly attached to the issue, and I don't particularly care, but just because Nyororin is looking at this in a different way than you does not mean she is "utterly heartless". Statements like this only take away attempts at a continuing a civil dialog, assuming that is what you want to do.

[Nyororin]

This is really not going much of anywhere. I answered specifically about the conspiracy comment, and never even said that was a common theme to begin with - just a gem that had come from US media. I also have explained twice the cruise control thing, and you simply do not get it. The car never does anything you don`t tell it to - it will stop and slow down if you tell it to. If the software didn`t do anything you weren`t specifically controlling at that moment, it would kind of defeat the purpose of cruise control, don`t you think?
The car doesn`t take off out of the blue. It`s just easier to set the speed higher, which is quite a bit different than being a "runaway".

If you want to pull a pity card and say I am heartless, feel free to do so. I try to think rationally about things and do research into actual statistics instead of making blind leaps based on my emotions.
You are saying Toyota was negligent, and I am saying we do not know this for certain - this is how corporations work, this is how investigations go, even though people want an instant solution - it isn`t that simple, etc. You say you want them to be BBQed in the media, and I just want the media to present facts without spin or sound clips from parents terrified of letting their kids play in the driveway in front of a parked Toyota... All the while flashing images of the 2010 Prius in the background (which wasn`t even involved in this recall). It leads people to believe there is far more danger than there really is.

To blow something out of proportion, there has to be something there to begin with. I have never said Toyota had no issues. I just take issue with the media going on and on and on and selling fear - not just with Toyota, but with all the stuff they do so with. Both in Japan and in the US.

You seem to be looking for a fight about the morality of not wanting Toyota to go belly up because of this, and... well... I`m not. I hope they get everything straightened out and bounce back. You do not seem to feel that way.

ETA;

I am just curious about all the deaths and lives ruined in this recall, as the KYODO news I am about to quote from today's Japan times says there have been 14 complaints in Japan, including one accident that led to two people slightly injured, and of the 100 complaints received by the NHTSA for the Prius, included two accidents that led to injuries. In the articles I am looking at right now, I am not seeing a death count, and it seems like that would be included if they are going to talk about injuries.

The recall and the Prius issue are totally different things. The acceleration problem isn`t happening in Japan.
With the Prius, it only happens at low speeds (under 20 something kph, if I recall correctly) and one tire slips. The switch to ABS isn`t smooth, (and the ABS acts kind of weird when you are on non-slippy ground) so there is a split second where the brakes sort of lose strength and you have to push down harder. The car does move forward more than normal brakes because that`s how ABS works. There have been no deaths related to this, and due to the low speeds and the fact that you can stop if you press harder, it is doubtful there will be any. It is scary, and is a flaw that needs to be fixed - just not quite brakes failing.

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I just take issue with the media going on and on and on and selling fear - not just with Toyota, but with all the stuff they do so with. Both in Japan and in the US.

*If it bleeds, it leads*. An Old Rule of reporters.

[SHAD0W]

OMG I LOVE THIS MOVIE!

The woman with 3 boobs is epic!

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Bully? C'mon, don't suddenly get thin skin.

It is statements like this that make me feel like you are relishing in it. Obviously this is the internet, but it is the sense I get:


Those are your words. Here are some more:


You say directly you want to see them BBQed in the media. I call that relishing.

You're wrong I get no pleasure from this mess. Nor did I ever say I wanted them to fail. I do want them to be humble and admit. That is not relishing. That is not wanting them to fail. I do want them to come clean with all their vehicle faults and do proper tests to determine them. They need to be more open with the public... they have been stonewalling up to the point of the recall which waisted vaulable time.

Originally Posted by MMM

I am just curious about all the deaths and lives ruined in this recall, as the KYODO news I am about to quote from today's Japan times says there have been 14 complaints in Japan, including one accident that led to two people slightly injured, and of the 100 complaints received by the NHTSA for the Prius, included two accidents that led to injuries. In the articles I am looking at right now, I am not seeing a death count, and it seems like that would be included if they are going to talk about injuries.

*EDIT*

Not enough dead or runined lives for you yet? You are heartless too then.
Take a look at the 3 ABC links I posted, you're answers are there.

Originally Posted by MMM

Clint, I think you need to get a little less personal in your arguments here. We are all adults talking about a car recall. I am not sure why you are so emotioanlly attached to the issue, and I don't particularly care, but just because Nyororin is looking at this in a different way than you does not mean she is "utterly heartless". Statements like this only take away attempts at a continuing a civil dialog, assuming that is what you want to do.

You are the one who started saying I relish in the Toyota recall and wanted to see them fail and not fix things. I didn't. You are calling names.

Nyororin can take care of herself, somewhat, in her verbal dialog. I'm just pointing out that she sees the media as overracting and naming names by using the "Toyota" in the headlines as a media Hyperbole. My point is, without the media in this case, the problems would have never been known for even longer while Toyota either drug their feet or tried to hide the problem. She made it personal when she calls this a media over-reaction to a serious issue. She also said the Media was plastering conspiracy documents that "Conspiracy to have Americans killed by foreign / Toyota vehicles", which then retracted to only one document which she can't produce. Then posts *one* Ehow document on the examples of this is a media hyperbole.

My point is, take what the media is printing seriously on this matter, and for people to stand up and not take this crap anymore. There is no defense to this level of failure at Toyota.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by SHAD0W

OMG I LOVE THIS MOVIE!

The woman with 3 boobs is epic!

I told you I'd be back.
Get your ass to mars.