The Beginning of Hope and Change

[darksyndrem]

Originally Posted by MMM

There are multiple perspectives, and I since the OP of the other thread hasn't come back to respond I thought it was fair to present the alternative opinion.

Well, just to let you know, I don't necessarily agree with everything the article said (the one I posted). Though there were a few things that I did agree with, I didn't even read it all. I just thought it would make for a good discussion here.

My opinion on health care reform may seem identical to other republicans but before I say anything about this I want to make sure that anyone reading this knows, that this is my opinion. What I'm going to say does not come from anyone's mouth or mind, but my own. So, in all honesty, the reason I thought this is a bad idea is because it's a huge step towards the government having more control over us (the people). In my opinion this is bad - very bad. As a human being, the last thing I want is for someone else (especially the government) to me in control of me and my life, and my health insurance. The government has absolutely no right to force me to do anything, and that is something that I would stand by all the way back when America was being formed (if this brings it into perspective, I think property tax is absolute bull shit and I would get rid of it at any given opportunity. Mind you, that is only one example and I cannot claim a lot of knowledge on other taxes). But I don't know, I see this as our government having a little bit more control, and I don't like that. This country belongs to the people not the government.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

So, in all honesty, the reason I thought this is a bad idea is because it's a huge step towards the government having more control over us (the people).

How? Do you mean having everyone be insured? This is a good thing.

Really, explain how you are losing control by the government reigning in the completely out of control insurance industry.

If anything it gives us, US citizens MORE control of our heath care options.

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

In my opinion this is bad - very bad. As a human being, the last thing I want is for someone else (especially the government) to me in control of me and my life, and my health insurance.

Would you rather have elected officials doing this or for-profit corporations who have your health at the bottom of their priority lists?

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

The government has absolutely no right to force me to do anything, and that is something that I would stand by all the way back when America was being formed (if this brings it into perspective, I think property tax is absolute bull shit and I would get rid of it at any given opportunity. Mind you, that is only one example and I cannot claim a lot of knowledge on other taxes). But I don't know, I see this as our government having a little bit more control, and I don't like that. This country belongs to the people not the government.

We do things the government forces us to do everyday. From moving our clocks an hour forward in spring to getting a government issued license to drive a car, living in a society means living by rules, and in our case these rules are determined by elected officials in the government. We need insurance to drive a car (at least in my state) and just as people want other drivers to have car insurance, as people we want everyone to have health insurance. This will save lives (as people will be able to go to the doctor earlier if they are sick) and save money (we pay for people that default on medical bills).

[darksyndrem]

Originally Posted by MMM

How? Do you mean having everyone be insured? This is a good thing.

Really, explain how you are losing control by the government reigning in the completely out of control insurance industry.

If anything it gives us, US citizens MORE control of our heath care options.

No, I'm talking about everyone being forced to pay for health insurance, and being fined (a pretty large fine for some people) if they don't.

Would you rather have elected officials doing this or for-profit corporations who have your health at the bottom of their priority lists?

Yes. If it's for-profit corporations, I can choose not to have insurance. Yes, they do have my health at the bottom of their priority lists, but these corporations do not care about my health any less than the government.

We do things the government forces us to do everyday. From moving our clocks an hour forward in spring to getting a government issued license to drive a car, living in a society means living by rules, and in our case these rules are determined by elected officials in the government. We need insurance to drive a car (at least in my state) and just as people want other drivers to have car insurance, as people we want everyone to have health insurance. This will save lives (as people will be able to go to the doctor earlier if they are sick) and save money (we pay for people that default on medical bills).

So, you're okay with the government having complete control (not that they have *complete* control right now, but damn it seems like it's getting close) over you, your family, and your life? Are you really okay with people that you don't even know, who are don't give a damn about you and are making millions off of your salary, controlling your life?

Also, Uncle Sam will be helping those who can't afford the health insurance. But, MMM, I'm sure you know who Uncle Sam actually is right? He's the American that works himself to death so that he can put food on the table for his family and pay the bills. Well, a good percentage of the money he works for goes to taxes. Those taxes are what pays for some people's insurance now. It's the hard workers that have to pay for themselves, and then some more for the people who won't work.

[alanX]

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

No, I'm talking about everyone being forced to pay for health insurance, and being fined (a pretty large fine for some people) if they don't.

It will be a fine of about $350 per year of not having health insurance.
It's cheaper to get the new health insurance, than it is to not have it.

Anyways, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome America to the rest of the World.

However, I am a bit skeptical as to how we are going to pay for it exactly, so if someone would like to clear that up for me, that would be nice.

EDIT: Never mind, I stopped being lazy and actually read the thread.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

No, I'm talking about everyone being forced to pay for health insurance, and being fined (a pretty large fine for some people) if they don't.

But everyone SHOULD be insured. That's how it is in every other first world country on the planet. If everyone is covered that makes it less expensive for everyone.

Just as you want your neighbor to have home owners insurance and the driver next to you to have car insurance, you want everyone to have health insurance.

Most people will get this through their work. Programs will be in place for those that can't afford it.

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

Yes. If it's for-profit corporations, I can choose not to have insurance. Yes, they do have my health at the bottom of their priority lists, but these corporations do not care about my health any less than the government.

Wrong here. Primary health insurance run by private corporations exists in only one first world country: The US. The idea of choosing not to have health insurance is completely foreign anywhere else in the civilized world. Knowing the cost of health care, why would anyone CHOOSE not to have insurance? That's like choosing to cut off a hand. Yes, you have that option, but why handicap yourself?

And having used health care in both Japan and the US I can assure you that elected officials are more interested in you being alive to vote for them again than for profit companies are interested in paying for your health bills. There are people in these companies that GET BONUSES for tossing people OUT of their programs for having expensive medical problems. Imagine if that were happening in a government program. Heads would roll.

I have received wonderful care in both countries, but in Japan there is no denial of service. There is no bankruptcy from expensive medical bills. There are no expensive prescriptions and insurance middle-men telling the doctor what tests he can or can't give me.

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

So, you're okay with the government having complete control (not that they have *complete* control right now, but damn it seems like it's getting close) over you, your family, and your life? Are you really okay with people that you don't even know, who are don't give a damn about you and are making millions off of your salary, controlling your life?

You are describing what I have right now. I pay hundreds of dollars a month to have people tell me that since a condition isn't life threatening it is not covered. In this case it is a private company that has that level of control. This wouldn't happen with single payer, but that doesn't matter.

What does "complete control" mean? You are sounding like a wild-eyed tea bagger claiming the sky is falling. In no way do I feel like the government has complete control over my life...nothing close to that. Yesterday's vote doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

Also, Uncle Sam will be helping those who can't afford the health insurance. But, MMM, I'm sure you know who Uncle Sam actually is right? He's the American that works himself to death so that he can put food on the table for his family and pay the bills. Well, a good percentage of the money he works for goes to taxes. Those taxes are what pays for some people's insurance now. It's the hard workers that have to pay for themselves, and then some more for the people who won't work.

The government doesn't pay for people's insurance (unless, of course, they are government workers.

[darksyndrem]

This isn't a direct response towards anything you've said, but I think you ought to listen to this.

[MMM]

This is from last summer. Why do you want me to watch it?

[darksyndrem]

Originally Posted by MMM

This is from last summer. Why do you want me to watch it?

Please watch it, he makes an excellent point on American individuals.

[MMM]

I watched it, but didn't hear any excellent points on individuals. Why don't you tell me what you think he said that you liked?

EDIT: This guy is a little delusional. He thinks the 7,000,000 views this video has means he has 7,000,000 supporters.

“Obviously more than 7 million Americans share my concerns about the government taking over our health care and paying for it with more taxes, higher premiums, and limits on who can get certain kinds of care.

Congressman Mike Rogers: Representing Michigan's 8th District

[darksyndrem]

"I will not punish any woman in America to this kind of system, knowing how great America is. The very innovation of who we are is what got us here, and it wasn't the federal government, and it wasn't washington D.C.. It was individuals who stood up for themselves, and said 'We can do better' and because of that we have the greatest middle class on the face of the earth. And this is one more tick in their ability to succeed in America."


I would also like you to read this short story. I understand that it may seem entirely irrelevant, but I want you to try to relate it to the Health Care Reform as best you can, and tell me what comes to mind.