The Beginning of Hope and Change

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Yes, but these countries have secondary health insurance. I am talking about primary health insurance. Secondary health insurance is purchased by people with the means to pay for, for example, a private room instead of sharing a room with another patient.

Nope, if you read the article, they are giant private insurance companies and they *can be* the primary source of health insurance if the individual chooses. You seem to be under the influence that private health insurance can't work as a better solution than a public option. Take Brazil for example.
And private or public, you are going to share a room in many countries. We are all about "sharing" right comrade?

Originally Posted by MMM

No, I didn't say that. Certainly there is a place for private health insurance, as we see in in places where these is a desire for secondary insurance to bump up comforts or help cover costs.

You didn't?

Originally Posted by MMM

We have a gigantic private heath care industry.

This industry does not exist in any other industrial country in the world.

Not in Japan, England, France, Canada, Germany...the list goes on.

Only in the US.

Legislation destroying this unneeded industry is obviously unpopular for those that work in it...so what do they do? They make their industry as indestructible as possible by appealing to US elected officials.

No... no, you did say "this unneeded industry".

And the fact is, private health insurance can be a primary source of insurance in many countries. The difference is in the US, there isn't a government public option available for 100% of the population.

Private health insurance is working quite well in many countries and around 85% of the American population.

Originally Posted by MMM

But you can certainly see the benefits of a universal plan that covered everyone.

Like Canada?

Originally Posted by MMM

The private insurance system has grown to such massive sizes, I don't think it is possible or probable. But the CEOs of these corporations are going home with millions of dollars in bonuses, something that wouldn't happen if it was run by the government and not as a "for profit" entity.

Here it is folks. Profit is evil. The government doesn't make a profit, so surely quality of service and speed and accuracy would remain, not to mention the knowledge and expertise to run and handle health insurance.

Why does the post office run at a deficit?
Why does the service at the DMV suck?
Why is the federal IRS tax code so difficult to understand that even government officials don't understand it?

Just look at the existing government health programs today. They run like a well oiled machine, with no waist, no lack in service, ease of use. Ask Barney Frank how well utopia of state health care is working.

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935. They have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938. They have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.

War on Poverty started in 1964. They have had 45 years to get it right.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. They have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970. They have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke.

The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil.
It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year,
and we import more oil than ever before. They had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

Its because government just does what it does. There is no reason to do anymore. No reason for innovation. If they want something fixed or improved upon, money is no object because it is not their money. They either print it, or get it from the public through taxes. Plus there are no if and or buts about it, if they need the money and they will get it until the country is broke.... oooppps that is where we are now..

I don't want my health insurance provider to operate the department of motor vehicles, nor do I want to draw lotteries to see if I can get a CT scan.

The fact is, if the CEOs make a profit from the success they have built, why is can't they be millionares? That is what America is all about.

If these companies are denying policy on a whim , thus breaking the contract policy, they should be punished.

Originally Posted by MMM

The bill specifically helps small business by offering tax credits to cover the cost of insuring employees. For me personally, that is what I am investigating now, but if my insurance company decides to jack up my rate double digits again, I have other options.

I don't see how this helps you if you are self employed and tax credits to small businesses who provide health insurance to their employees, not the indivdual business owner. If that was the case, everyone in the country outside the cover of a company would get a business license to get the credit.

My point is, this bill doesn't address the true problems of the health costs.
Why?

Originally Posted by MMM

And I agree the Supreme Court decision to give corporations human rights and to call money "free speech" is ridiculous.

What I wrote to this didn't agree one bit with your notion that it was ridiculous.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Like others here, you speak to the point that you don't know of anyone personally with medical bills in the entire country of Japan, as if it makes it a fact that anyone is in this situation. However you speak in your first paragraph of Cancer treatment bills adding up. And this is the heart of the issues in the US, people going bankrupt because of a "medical disaster" such as Cancer.

You seem not to notice that there is a difference between bills adding up (not being "free") and going bankrupt because you can`t afford to pay them. There is a HUGE difference. Not being able to go on that planned family vacation or even to replace old clothes and furniture, is a lot different than having to sell your car and house to be able to continue receiving care. "My medications are expensive!" is different from "I can only afford my medications if I don`t eat this week..."

There are some instances where insurance companies drop a person who has been paying their premium but didn't disclose a previous condition or drops them for some reason. Make no mistake this dropping someone on a whim is something that was wrong and something that this Bill does fix.

When it comes to US health care I can only comment on my own family. I do not know what the rest of the country is doing, and what the rest of the country is going through.
I do know that my grandmother was dropped from her insurance after paying for 40 some years because she had smoked back during the war, and there was a possibility that the lung condition that she develop about a month before her death (and that killed her) was an undetected previous condition. It invalidated those 40 some years of continual payments with no major use. That month after she collapsed and was in the hospital had to be paid out of pocket because - according to the insurance company - chances are the condition was caused by her few years of smoking and factory exposure back in the 40s (she built military planes). I don`t see this as "dropping someone who didn`t disclose a previous condition".
I have a bone condition that requires supplements and monitoring. I was born with this, and have always had it. It was detected about 2 years after I was born when my first teeth starting rotting away at an abnormal pace due to a calcium processing and tooth enamel side effect. I was dropped from the dental plan as soon as the condition was detected because while the dental plan kicked in with the first tooth, the condition existed before that. "Undisclosed" apparently.

You mention life style changes: If the family in question didn't have a policy to take care of such a disaster because they couldn't afford it, why would they have be mortgaging house(s) to begin with? If a person had a policy and it was canceled illegally, it could be fought in the courts, though that is also a timely and expensive process.

No, they had an emergency policy that covered to $500,000 a year. Doesn`t help much when your child requires care in excess of $2,000,000 in one year. There was nothing illegally cancelled (although the insurance company tried to get out of paying it in any possible way). They just weren`t covered beyond $500,000 a year. After they hit the limit, there was nothing until next year. I seem to recall hearing that they were dropped the following year for excessive use, but I didn`t have much contact with them after that.

I hate the excuse that "Well, they shouldn`t have been buying a house anyway if they couldn`t afford a medical emergency." It simply doesn`t apply to most situations. It`s like saying "Well, you shouldn`t have gotten sick then, huh!"

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

huh!"

That is unfortunate and is quite admiral that they were able to make it through that with the condition you described.

In the end though the insurance company 500,000 policy was not at fault for not covering a 2 million policy. This doesn't make the insurance company evil and greedy. This doesn't make the family less for not taking out a 2 million dollar policy; who really knows what a medical emergency such as the one you described could really cost when one buys a policy; the average policy doesn't cover that much. The only things at fault here is

1. the cost of health care - it can definitely be brought down in the US and elsewhere but there comes a breaking point as well where the costs is what it costs. No innovation, no new technology to build health care

2. the design of the system - I believe Japan's population size and being of a society of one race and culture makes the health care system there what is generally a success today.... though most of Japan's hospitals run close or at a deficit most of the time.

Contrast this to other systems like Canada or the UK. It all comes down to the dynamics of the country and society.

It would be great it health care was at no or little costs, but at the same time that is like saying we should live in a world without money, trade or obtained wealth. This is communism. And the quality of health care in the average communist country is not so hot.

They are very fortunate to be able to have pay for it.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Nope, if you read the article, they are giant private insurance companies and they *can be* the primary source of health insurance if the individual chooses. You seem to be under the influence that private health insurance can't work as a better solution than a public option. Take Brazil for example.
And private or public, you are going to share a room in many countries. We are all about "sharing" right comrade?

Private health insurance can be a better option for those that want to and can afford it. (I.E. for people that things like a private room is a priority). So yes that CAN be. It is about having options...in this case a public option and a private option.

Originally Posted by clintjm

And the fact is, private health insurance can be a primary source of insurance in many countries. The difference is in the US, there isn't a government public option available for 100% of the population.

Private health insurance is working quite well in many countries and around 85% of the American population.

Like police and fire services, private health insurance works great for those that never need to use it.

Watch that number drop when you ask people who are "in the system" to give their feelings on the return of their investment. It is not an 85% satisfaction rate.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Here it is folks. Profit is evil. The government doesn't make a profit, so surely quality of service and speed and accuracy would remain, not to mention the knowledge and expertise to run and handle health insurance.

Is that what I said? No.

Like software companies and car dealers, insurance companies are in the business of making money. Not of helping the sick.

Profit is not evil. However, when your job is to provide the best medical service of your customers, and you don't do that in the simple interest of making multi-million dollar bonuses for the CEOs of the company I think that is deplorable. The Humane Society is not for profit. Puppy farms are for profit. If you were a dog, where would you rather be?

Originally Posted by clintjm

Why does the post office run at a deficit?

The Postal Service is the only government agency that receives no money from taxes. It is forced to be self-sufficient. Why is it losing money? Because people don't write letters any more.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Why does the service at the DMV suck?

Mine is fine, but I have heard that before.

I am sorry Clint, but I am not going to go through all your points...there just aren't enough hours in the day. After Darksyndrem basically assed out after two days of discussion, I just am not going to put much more time into this.

Cop out? Maybe. I agree with much of what you are saying, and the frustration comes from so many question marks. Do I think the bill that passed is perfect? No. I am not going to pretend to completely understand it, but I am going to put a little faith in the idea that it is a big step in the right direction and a direction I believe in.

If this bill really is the hell storm that some politicians would have us believe, then that will come to fruition and we'll see those that voted for it get voted out of office for causing so much pain and bankruptcy, etc.

I think this bill is the first step of a reform of a system that needs work.

If 85% of people (that are insured) really were satisfied with their health care, then why do more people support universal health care than private corporate health care?

At this point I am going to leave it at that, as anything more will be repetition.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Watch that number drop when you ask people who are "in the system" to give their feelings on the return of their investment. It is not an 85% satisfaction rate.

What are you talking about?
Are you saying the 95% of the 85% that have insurance have never used their insurance before? sooo you are saying on average if the insruance company is not paying out more than what you are paying in premiums, then its a bad investment and people are not satisfied?

Thats like saying I'm going to have a accident with my car in order to get a good return on my investment in car insurnace?

Awww I'd didn't get sick and use my insurance but I still had to pay my premiums... those evil greed insruance comapnies.

Originally Posted by MMM

Is that what I said? No.


Like software companies and car dealers, insurance companies are in the business of making money. Not of helping the sick.

Profit is not evil. However, when your job is to provide the best medical service of your customers, and you don't do that in the simple interest of making multi-million dollar bonuses for the CEOs of the company I think that is deplorable. The Humane Society is not for profit. Puppy farms are for profit. If you were a dog, where would you rather be?

Your comparisons, as usual, escape me. Tell me again how it is like paving roads or like fire/police. I love that comparison.

So then a health insurance company that hasn't raised their rates and is excellant of covering policies, but has multi-million dollar bonuses and salary is okay right? I'm talking about the up an up ones. And that is a majority of them.

Do you have a problem with doctors making a big salaray?

Originally Posted by MMM

The Postal Service is the only government agency that receives no money from taxes. It is forced to be self-sufficient. Why is it losing money? Because people don't write letters any more.

HA! I guess all the Ecommerce just doesn't have any affect in this modern age of E-mail.
Weak MMM... weak.. [psst.. thats not the reason]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am sorry Clint, but I am not going to go through all your points...there just aren't enough hours in the day. After Darksyndrem basically assed out after two days of discussion, I just am not going to put much more time into this.

Cop out? Maybe. I agree with much of what you are saying, and the frustration comes from so many question marks. Do I think the bill that passed is perfect? No. I am not going to pretend to completely understand it, but I am going to put a little faith in the idea that it is a big step in the right direction and a direction I believe in.

Thats fine... you can just sit back and listen; however its obvious I'm waisting my breath on you, but maybe somebody else might pop up in this.

You start a thread on how great this is... you state the utopia of government control of health care...you state how much money you will save in your struggling situation (pssstt THERE IS NONE in the case you described)... Obama promised the world... Health care is a right and you never be denied anything as far as health care.... I can play the speeches for you... yet here we are... medicare is being cut and health insurance companies are demonized.

You completely ignored the other failures of government I listed... the most important ones... GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE!!!!! We are going to have government crush private health insurance, then they control it, and run it like medicare, the DMV, or IRS? Why do you have so much trust in government to save you when you see these failures of governmetn run program and a national debt of this size? What is wrong with you?

Now we are cutting Medicare and cutting more into Social Security to fund this new program because the old ones failed? Now the government going to tell us what policies to buy; and that I will buy this company's product or I'll be fined or jailed? What is this?

This is the biggest disaster of Tyranny the States has seen and I don't know when. Once the government have control health care, then they can control the corner stone of society. This design is to topple Private owned health insurance comapnies, then the government can move in to "bail them out" and control.

This is why the cost of health care was never addressed. Got to go after the rich evil health insurance companies to start... then slowly chip away at other system.

Why does the health care bill have a portion that states the government is the only enttity that can give student loans now? The government is now in control "completely" on who goes to school and who doesn't. Great reason to tax some more.

Sure... sounds like a wild eyed Tea partier? Nope, it was the majority of the American people saying this and the representives making back room deals and ignoring the public. Maybe... but I don't like -isms this group is leading us to.

Originally Posted by MMM

If this bill really is the hell storm that some politicians would have us believe, then that will come to fruition and we'll see those that voted for it get voted out of office for causing so much pain and bankruptcy, etc.
I think this bill is the first step of a reform of a system that needs work.

ITS TOO LATE! THATS THE POINT. IT HAS SIGNED IT INTO LAW. The governmetn doesn't reliquish power. It doesn't scale back programs, entitlements, waist, fighting wars: THAT IS WHY WE ARE IN A IMPOSSIBLE DEFICIT! AND YET PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF EGG THIS ON. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THE SIZE OF DEBT
THIS COUNTRY IS IN? HOW CAN YOU TELL ME WE ARE GOING TO RECOVER?

You utterly refuse to answer the question why this bill did not address the issue of solving the problem of rising health care costs and instead demonized the insurance companies instead. Medicare is the biggest denier of coverage out of ALL the private health insruance companies.

HOW MANY DEMOCRATS VOTED NO ON THIS BILL WITH THE FINAL VOTE? WHY DID THIS GO ON SO LONG WHEN A MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE WAS DEMOCRAT? WHY DID THE TRY A PASS WITHOUT A VOTE BEFORE THEY FOUND OUT IT THEY COULND'T.

Majority of the American people my ass.

Originally Posted by MMM

If 85% of people (that are insured) really were satisfied with their health care, then why do more people support universal health care than private corporate health care?

The same lies that contine to demonize the health insruance industry. Becuase people such as yourself have never experience government health industry such as the rationing/delays Canadian or the costs of the UK....

The president is a habitual liar and that is why last week his approval rating dropped to 43%, one percent away from no return.

Originally Posted by MMM

At this point I am going to leave it at that, as anything more will be repetition.

This is a big f---in deal.
-Biden

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

[xyzone]

This is depressing. Let's put aside the right wingnuts teabagging about "government takeover" for a second, such as the global warming denialist coco above. The amount of people swallowing this tripe is depressing. The fact remains that no serious reform took place, not from an economic standpoint. The insurance companies still can and will raise costs to leech the economy with their monopoly status. True reform will be the public option, which is something that will never happen because both parties in the U.S. are owned by corporations.

[fluffy0000]

sorry to interupt your 'pity party' teabaggers - but could the last one of you dudes who leaves the room blow out the candle in your 'pitty party cupcake'.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

What are you talking about?
Are you saying the 95% of the 85% that have insurance have never used their insurance before? sooo you are saying on average if the insruance company is not paying out more than what you are paying in premiums, then its a bad investment and people are not satisfied?

Thats like saying I'm going to have a accident with my car in order to get a good return on my investment in car insurnace?

Awww I'd didn't get sick and use my insurance but I still had to pay my premiums... those evil greed insruance comapnies.

You are pulling a card from Dark's deck of tricks.

Of course I said nothing of the kind, and I am not going to spend all day explaining something so simple to someone not interested in reading.

If you ask people if they are happy with their health insurance you said 85% of people are.

But the majority of people never USE their health insurance, so they have little to be dissatisfied with, (but ask their employer if they are happy).

My point is that if you ask people that have or are actually "using" their health insurance (meaning they have health issues and are "in the system") then that satisfaction rate plummets. That's all.

Please don't overcomplicate this any more than it needs to be.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Majority of the American people my ass.

Social Security, Medicare Faced Same Arguments

[manganimefan227]

threads lik these with politics make me feel dumb . . .

[HarajukuLima]

Originally Posted by xyzone

This is depressing. Let's put aside the right wingnuts teabagging about "government takeover" for a second, such as the global warming denialist coco above. The amount of people swallowing this tripe is depressing. The fact remains that no serious reform took place, not from an economic standpoint. The insurance companies still can and will raise costs to leech the economy with their monopoly status. True reform will be the public option, which is something that will never happen because both parties in the U.S. are owned by corporations.

Here, here Zyone! It isn't universal health care, but it's a start. I highly doubt that the public option will be incredibly expensive. No one will buy into it if it is...simple as that. I know it sounds like such a cut and dry plan, but that really IS the case. Some insurance is better than none. And I highly doubt that they're going to make people pay $300 for a visit to the band-aid station. However, even if dental isn't covered, I'm sure it'll be an improvement on prescription costs and so on.

My fiance's dad just underwent MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR Heart Surgery. With any luck, the thousands and thousands of dollars he owes will disappear.....or at least be greatly diminished. Most people die before they can even make a payment and it's really sad.