New Law in the U.S. State: Arizona

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

You can hit this argument all you want.
The fact is lawful contact hasn't changed despite how you and the left want to make this racial. Police still must uphold stopping someone legally.

I never said the definition of LAWFUL CONTACT has changed. Why do I have to keep saying "I never said" in response to any of your arguments? Please, read what I said.

I said LAWFUL CONTACT is any police contact that doesn't involve the officer doing an illegal act. Basically ANY contact is legal.

Originally Posted by clintjm

I gave you an example. You refuse to acknowledge it.

Baloney, Clint. I did acknowledge it. Now will you acknowledge the fact that police officers can go up a group of LEGAL CITIZENS, let's say a bunch of teenagers standing in front of a Starbucks, and demand proof of citizenship?

Originally Posted by clintjm

Reasonable suspicion will extend to anyone according to law. There is nothing written into the law to prevent state officials to ask a black, white, red, yellow, green, blue man or women if they are in the country legally. Does the fact that they can ask this race satisfy you? I doubt it.
Race baiting is the oldest lefty political trick in the book when this has nothing to do with race.

But where is the REASONABLE SUSPICION? If it extends to everyone, then what is REASONABLE SUSPICION? Are you saying police officers should be reasonably suspicious of EVERYONE for being an illegal alien? If that is the case, how can you say this isn't a blow to civil liberties and freedoms? Do you support a law that forces the police to question EVERYONE'S legality?

Originally Posted by clintjm

You refuse to answer my questions on Japan and other countries.
The fact is you can't answer it without losing face.

To be honest I didn't even read them because you were not answering my questions. I wasn't interested in deflections.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Japanese law enforcement can stop an individual and ask them for ID for proof of being there legally without cause. There is no race debate.
Does that make Japanese racists? No.

Of course not, because you can count the number of non-Japanese who are citizens on two hands.

But I wouldn't say that doesn't make the Japanese laws not-race based. I guarantee if a Japanese cop asks a white guy on the street to show his ID, that is completely based on the fact he is white. Same if he was Irani, Thai, whatever. Cops in Japan don't ask Japanese citizens to show proof of legality. People would jump through the roof if they did. HOWEVER with the new Arizona law LEGAL CITIZENS can and will be asked to show proof of legality. THAT is the difference between Arizona and Japan.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Federal law enforcement can stop an individual and ask them for ID for proof of being there legally without cause. There is no race debate.
Does that make Feds racists? No.

Sure, I am asked at the airport or when I cross the borders. No problem because EVERYONE is asked. Now you are asking non-federal law officers to make judgement calls based on REASONABLE SUSPICION. Are you starting to see where the problem with this law is?

Originally Posted by clintjm

Country X law enforcement can stop an individual and ask them for ID for proof of being there legally without cause. There is no race debate.
Does that make Country X racists? No.

I don't know why you are making up countries now. I don't know country X and I don't know if their laws are racist or not.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Arizona State law enforcement can stop an individual and ask them for ID for proof of being there legally after being lawfully stopped. Lawfully being stopped doesn't extend to only suspicion of being in the country illegally based on race. That would be defined as an illegal stop. There is no race debate. Does that make police racists? No.

The police are not the ones who enacted this law, it was Arizona's state government.

LAWFUL CONTACT doesn't only mean "stopping" someone. This isn't only about traffic violations...you don't seem to want to acknowledge that. This is ANY contact. It could be at a park, a concert, in front of a house, at a school...you name it.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Arizona state law doesn't go far enough in my mind. I would like them to have the power Japanese Police and the Federal government has.

What can Japanese cops do that Arizona cops can't?

Originally Posted by clintjm

The fact is this is the law of a sovereign country.
It is law now. I believe it is a good law.

It is a poorly written law of a single state.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Silly race baiting talking points of the left and Charlatans in power boycotting their own nation's neighboring states. The most foolish crap I've seen in a long time.

Stop being a part of the problem MMM.

Explain how I am part of the problem. You know and I know that the problem is the many industries in places like Arizona that DEPEND on cheap and illegal labor...that BUDGET for illegal labor.

Why not save 10s of millions of dollars in law enforcement training (that Arizona is requesting from the federal government) and go after THE REAL PROBLEM? Go after those that hire illegal immigrants! It's easy! Everyone knows who they are. They are not mobile. Start slapping on fines, and then start shutting down businesses. Then all those poor legal citizens who are looking for work would soon find an influx of job openings.

But unfortunately those industries are the one's that line the pockets of the politicians, and so it won't be so likely they are going to feel one iota of heartache from this.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by jbradfor

You are misreading it. Here, "the entity" refers to the government entity that issued the identification. For me, it would be the state of MN. So they are staying they will accept a different government ID, IF that government checks for legal presence when issuing that ID. If that (non AZ) government entity does NOT check for legal presence, then they won't accept it.

I'm simply not reading that way.
It wouldn't make any sense for them AZ not to accept another state ID.
But it would make for good headlines if it was read like the way you are describing.

I agree to disagree on that.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

I'm simply not reading that way.
It wouldn't make any sense for them AZ not to accept another state ID.
But it would make for good headlines if it was read like the way you are describing.

I agree to disagree on that.

But that is EXACTLY what it says. My state (OR) does not check for legal status when issuing an ID. So now AZ will not accept my OR license if I am pulled over.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

I never said the definition of LAWFUL CONTACT has changed. Why do I have to keep saying "I never said" in response to any of your arguments? Please, read what I said. I said LAWFUL CONTACT is any police contact that doesn't involve the officer doing an illegal act. Basically ANY contact is legal.Baloney, Clint. I did acknowledge it. Now will you acknowledge the fact that police officers can go up a group of LEGAL CITIZENS, let's say a bunch of teenagers standing in front of a Starbucks, and demand proof of citizenship?But where is the REASONABLE SUSPICION? If it extends to everyone, then what is REASONABLE SUSPICION? Are you saying police officers should be reasonably suspicious of EVERYONE for being an illegal alien? If that is the case, how can you say this isn't a blow to civil liberties and freedoms? Do you support a law that forces the police to question EVERYONE'S legality?

Yes, it is the fed's and now AZ law enforcement's ability to question our legality. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by MMM

To be honest I didn't even read them because you were not answering my questions.

That the problem MMM. You are not reading the posts before responding.
I answered, but not to your satisfaction of me not agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by MMM

I wasn't interested in deflections. Of course not, because you can count the number of non-Japanese who are citizens on two hands.

But I wouldn't say that doesn't make the Japanese laws not-race based. I guarantee if a Japanese cop asks a white guy on the street to show his ID, that is completely based on the fact he is white. Same if he was Irani, Thai, whatever.

That is the point MMM. The Japanese can profile on Race. Here is the bigger point That doesn't make them racists either. They are no different now that AZ or the Federal government asking citizens of a difference race for legality in the country.

Originally Posted by MMM

Cops in Japan don't ask Japanese citizens to show proof of legality.
People would jump through the roof if they did. HOWEVER with the new Arizona law LEGAL CITIZENS can and will be asked to show proof of legality. THAT is the difference between Arizona and Japan.

False. They can and do Japanese citizens to show proof of legality.
Strange, I thought there were non-Japanese citizens or legal entities in Japan. There are. Japanese can askif they don't think they are Japanese. What if they appear, Chinese, Korean, Filipino? They may end up being Japanese? Still the police can and **do** ask; from up close experience.

Originally Posted by MMM

Sure, I am asked at the airport or when I cross the borders. No problem because EVERYONE is asked. Now you are asking non-federal law officers to make judgement calls based on REASONABLE SUSPICION. Are you starting to see where the problem with this law is?

Nope. Just doing what other countries are doing now. See Japan reference.

Originally Posted by MMM

I don't know why you are making up countries now. I don't know country X and I don't know if their laws are racist or not.

X is a variable. You can insert in country of your liking. They will all end in the same result: They can ask whomever they please of the legality of being in the country x legally.

Originally Posted by MMM

LAWFUL CONTACT doesn't only mean "stopping" someone. This isn't only about traffic violations...you don't seem to want to acknowledge that. This is ANY contact. It could be at a park, a concert, in front of a house, at a school...you name it.

Imagine what you want. The problem is finally being handled.

Originally Posted by MMM

What can Japanese cops do that Arizona cops can't?

Ask about being in the country legally without crazy libs calling them racist racial profilers. A.K.A. Profile on race. Clear?

Originally Posted by MMM

It is a poorly written law of a single state.
Explain how I am part of the problem.

You don't want me to really answer that.

Originally Posted by MMM

You know and I know that the problem is the many industries in places like Arizona that DEPEND on cheap and illegal labor...that BUDGET for illegal labor.

As I said I agree it is part of the problem. It alone isn't going to fix the problem. Read the NY POST article by Ralph Peters.

Originally Posted by MMM

Why not save 10s of millions of dollars in law enforcement training (that Arizona is requesting from the federal government) and go after THE REAL PROBLEM?

10s of million dollars for training? I don't think it is just for training. But government based budgets are not of the finest accounting.

That is a drop in the bucket for most states.
We don't disagree that businesses should be punished for hiring illegals.
Drug cartels and crime bred from poverty, desperation, and gangs is what has brought AZ to act.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

But that is EXACTLY what it says. My state (OR) does not check for legal status when issuing an ID. So now AZ will not accept my OR license if I am pulled over.

Again... whatever you want to imagine... like I previously posted, that would make good headlines.

Right now it just makes good talking point for "The View" or anything on MSNbc.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Yes, it is the fed's and now AZ law enforcement's ability to question our legality. Deal with it.

This the part you aren't acknowledging.

It is a reduction of freedom and civil liberties.

How can you so nonchalantly take that?

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

This the part you aren't acknowledging.

It is a reduction of freedom and civil liberties.

How can you so nonchalantly take that?

The same way I do when asked by a federal law enforcement officer.
The same way I do when asked by a law enforcement officer in Japan and every any other country I can think of.

I'm taking it quite well thank you because nothing has changed. My ID is proof I'm in any country legally.

Having to show simple ID to law enforcement is not racists.
It is the WORLD we live in.
There is no loss of freedom or civil liberties. You exaggerate. Show your ID, as you always have, and you can get back is to whatever you do.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Having to show simple ID to law enforcement is not racists.
It is the WORLD we live in.

You're still missing the point, though. There's nothing wrong with this, the problem is knowing who to check and who not to check without actually profiling. This is an immigrant country. It's loaded with immigrants, natural-born, legal, and illegal. IMO, this law still seems to be targeting anyone who doesn't "look white" and those who are Hispanic, Mexican, or Latin American, and I still find it unfair. They can check people if they're suspicious, okay, but what does one have to do to garner any type of suspicion in the first place? What reason would they give to check people? Unless the person is driving and breaking a rule there and get pulled over, I can understand that, but the fact that that doesn't have to be the case bothers me some.

For the example you gave, I don't see how being asked to see your ID in a country where it's obvious you're a foreigner is comparable to what Arizona wants to do. In the US, you can't really do that because it's loaded with so many people from so many different backgrounds. This law is targeting not just illegal immigrants, but legal ones too, and god forbid if said person forgot to have his id on him at the time (let's say he's in a rush and forgot it) and get arrested for it.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

The same way I do when asked by a federal law enforcement officer.
The same way I do when asked by a law enforcement officer in Japan and every any other country I can think of.

I'm taking it quite well thank you because nothing has changed. My ID is proof I'm in any country legally.

Having to show simple ID to law enforcement is not racists.
It is the WORLD we live in.
There is no loss of freedom or civil liberties. You exaggerate. Show your ID, as you always have, and you can get back is to whatever you do.

“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
-Martin Luther King Jr.


Just because you have your "papers in order" doesn't mean there isn't an injustice happening here. Wow, what a selfish argument.

Your argument that "that is how they do it in Japan" holds no water to me for a couple reasons.

There are certain freedoms we enjoy in the US that are not law in Japan. Are you willing to give up all those freedoms so we can live under the same laws as Japan?

No, of course not. Japan is an island country that is practically homogeneous. In practical terms, citizenship is based on race in Japan. That is changing little by little, but it has to do with the race of one's father or mother and where one is born.

Simply put, that isn't how we do it in US. If that's how you think we should do it, then that is fine, but I am shocked you would be willing to give up so many of the freedoms we are guaranteed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[Ryzorian]

Last time I checked, When you had 12 million cross an border illegally, it was an invadeing army. So yes, you would generally "profile" for that.

Now I'm sure many come here to make a better life for themselves, and that's fine. However, it has to be documented. I can also understand the problems with how immigration is handled nowadays. It's dreadfully slow, perhaps they should set up another "Ellis Island" type thing, in any event they must controle the border, and that means arresting and deporting illegals.

It will be messy at first, but it has to be done. When it's cleared, then we can figure how we want to allow further immigration.

It's immpossible to play the game as it is now, because players are all over the place and nobody knows what team any of them belongs to.