New Law in the U.S. State: Arizona

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by West

I don't really see anything wrong, obviously deporting them didn't work.
It's like trespassing. If you trespass, you go to jail.
I know many people don't like the law, but what's the big deal?

It may fall into the whole "profiling" category. When you think illegal immigrants, who do you think the cops would stop and ask first? IMO, the problem is that this law targets both illegals and legals. If you look a certain way, it may be assumed you're illegal until you can prove it. I think that's what most have a problem with.

[West]

Here's the problem with profiling.
Everyone does it.
Doesn't matter who you are, where you are from, or what your belief is.
If you notice something, thoughts pop up into your head.
In their job, they are to keep out illegal immigrants, and because they are trying to keep people from crossing the Mexican-American border.
So, it isn't their fault that you look hispanic, they are just doing their jobs to assist in hindering illegal immigration.

If you are a legal citizen, you show your proof of citizenship, and you go on with your day.

[Paul11]

There is no profiling. could you give me a definition of one used in the courts? Is profiling the same as racial profiling? No, it is not.

Arizona has become the kidnap capitol of the world. The world. More than Iraq, more than Mexico. All by Mexican drug gangs. Not to mentions the human traffiking in people forced into sex work.

But we should let that continue because..... why? It's racism to allow these people into the country and use them as a slave class of labor. It's illegal to assume they can't learn English and translate everything for them.

it's the liberal who wants the illegal crossings to continue that has profiled and used people based on race. Now the Pres and his ilk are manipulating them for votes and doing nothing for them.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by West

So, it isn't their fault that you look hispanic, they are just doing their jobs to assist in hindering illegal immigration.

If you are a legal citizen, you show your proof of citizenship, and you go on with your day.

So if you are a person of color you are OK with being asked to show proof of citizenship when white people are not?

Does that sound like the America you want to be living in?

Originally Posted by Paul11

There is no profiling. could you give me a definition of one used in the courts? Is profiling the same as racial profiling? No, it is not.

Arizona has become the kidnap capitol of the world. The world. More than Iraq, more than Mexico. All by Mexican drug gangs. Not to mentions the human traffiking in people forced into sex work.

But we should let that continue because..... why? It's racism to allow these people into the country and use them as a slave class of labor. It's illegal to assume they can't learn English and translate everything for them.

it's the liberal who wants the illegal crossings to continue that has profiled and used people based on race. Now the Pres and his ilk are manipulating them for votes and doing nothing for them.

Actually Mexico City is the kidnapping capital of the world. That being said, no one is saying criminals shouldn't be punished for crimes they commit.

Nobody wants the illegal crossings to continue, and it is simply silly to think that liberals want that to happen.

Who does want the illegal crossings to continue are the industries which survive and thrive by paying illegal immigrants less than minimum wage to work here. That's it.

The complaint is not about stopping illegal immigrants from coming in. My complaint is that legal citizens will lose rights. See the post above yours. People are willing to toss away the civil rights of legal citizens to fulfill the goal of capturing illegal immigrants.

The way to fight illegal immigration is to go after the companies and corporations that hire undocumented workers. It is cheap. It is easy. We know where they live. Corporation presidents and company owners cannot go into hiding like an undocumented worker can. They have reputations to keep and money to fine.

Instead of another reduction of the rights of legal citizens, let's try and keep the civil rights of Americans and go after those encouraging illegal immigration.

[Paul11]

MMM, what are you talking about?

what rights are thrown away for legal citizens? What rights are dismissed? None. This will withstand legal scrutiny because it mirrors existing laws that have already passed scrutiny. the law states that if a person is contacted under reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot (yes, that is actual legal jargon) then an officer may inquire about citizenship. If an officer stopps someone in a traffic stop, or drug law violation, or an assault, and that person has no license and can't ID themselves, then the issue is addressed.
no rights are impinged. Please state the rights, listed in the constitution, that are trampled. You can't, because there are none. this law was written to withstand constitutional scruntiny.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Paul11

MMM, what are you talking about?

what rights are thrown away for legal citizens? What rights are dismissed? None. This will withstand legal scrutiny because it mirrors existing laws that have already passed scrutiny. the law states that if a person is contacted under reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot (yes, that is actual legal jargon) then an officer may inquire about citizenship. If an officer stopps someone in a traffic stop, or drug law violation, or an assault, and that person has no license and can't ID themselves, then the issue is addressed.
no rights are impinged. Please state the rights, listed in the constitution, that are trampled. You can't, because there are none. this law was written to withstand constitutional scruntiny.

I am looking at what the above poster said:

So, it isn't their fault that you look hispanic, they are just doing their jobs to assist in hindering illegal immigration.

If you are a legal citizen, you show your proof of citizenship, and you go on with your day.


This is the attitude that concerns me. "Look illegal, be treated like an illegal until you can prove me wrong."

Is this how we treat American citizens? I don't think so.

The state I live in doesn't require a proof of citizenship to get a licence. So if I were to be pulled over in Arizona, my license would not be proof of my citizenship. Now I am white, so it is unlikely I would be asked to show an American passport or original copy of my birth certificate in order to not be taken in and processed.

However, what if I were an American-born Hispanic and was visiting Arizona from out of state? If my state ID was not sufficient evidence of my citizenship (as I came from a state that didn't require proof of citizenship to get a license), I could be held and questioned until somehow I was able to prove citizenship.

Should Latino-Americans be forced to carry American passports to travel to Arizona?

I am not talking about not having ID, I am talking about not having "proof of citizenship". Those are not always the same thing.

[West]

Originally Posted by MMM

So if you are a person of color you are OK with being asked to show proof of citizenship when white people are not?

Does that sound like the America you want to be living in?

How many white people do you see trying to illegally trespass from Mexico into the United States?

I understand that there are circumstances that require sacrifices.
So, I don't see the problem with that searching. I support it, completely.
With that said, yes, that does sound like the America I want to live in.

How hard is it to pull out your wallet and show an ID?
I do that multiple times a day, because I work on a government compound.
Not just that, but I live on a military base. So, as a matter of security, I find it a great idea.

[Paul11]

The law prohibits requesting ID based on someone looking "hispanic." It will not happen. The law was ammended to not allow it.

The above poster is correct. The race of a person committing a crime may be taken into consideration per the law, but that is not racially profiling. If the border is with mexico, it goes logically that most of the violators will be hispanic. That is not racially profiling - it is recognizing the facts of the cirmstances. This has been upheld in the supreme court. Racially profiling is targeting someone because of race.
It gets old hearing everyon screaming about racial profiling on so many issues when it is not happening. Those people clearly know jack about the law.

MMM, do you live in a border state where the damage is being done? I don't think so, but of course I could be wrong. Trust me. People don't all come here to work.
earlier you said we should target businesses who hire illegals. But that targets those who come to work. To catch the gang members, drug runners, human smugglers and general criminals, this law allows that to happen.

[Paul11]

MMM - you still did not list any rights of the constitution infringed apon by the law.

Also, Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano have been running around screaming the law is unconstitutional. But when confronted they bot said (within the last 36 hours) they had not read the law and do not know it. When pressed further they said, "Uh, uh, uh, I, uh, mean, uh, uh...." Do not be fooled. Those who oppose this bill do so for political reasons with no knowledge, or regard, of the law, even though the majority of people support the law and are screaming for more. The damage to the border states has been devastating.

[MMM]

Paul, I think you and West need to get your stories straight. This is the duality of the reality of this law.

One side (Paul11) of supporters says "No it isn't racial profiling! Where is that in the law? It says race is not reasonable grounds for suspicion!"

And then the other side (West) says, "Got brown skin? Sorry. Sacrifices need to be made. You look Mexican, then you better have the proper ID, or else."

Politically you can argue the former, but is there any doubt that the reality is more along West's way of thinking?

So the rights I am talking are not about the rights of illegal citizens, but of LEGAL citizens being stepped on. What rights, you ask? The right to not be held to a different standard of identification just because of the color of my skin. Millions of Latino-American people living in the US are Americans. Why should they be held to a different standard than white Americans? West says because they look like illegals from south of the border. That's racial profiling and it's a violation of rights.

Regarding drug and human smuggling, this law does nothing to help prevent that from happening any more than the laws that already exist do. Those are already serious crimes with serious consequences. Reducing the rights of American citizens doesn't make that go away.