Do Japanese guys pay for meals/outings for female friends?

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Bias? Being as the original question was about how it`s done in Japan, I would think that they might want to hear from people who have dated (and seriously, not just looking for someone to hop into bed with) in Japan.

True, my comments were based on dating Japanese and Korean men who were either traveling or who had immigrated to the U.S., not dating them in their native country. But since few if any of their customs were modified by being here, the observation stands. And given that the majority of posters on this forum have no frame of reference that specific, my posting seems more than warranted.

Earlier someone mentioned that it is customary for hosts to bear the cost of entertaining foreign visitors. While that custom is consistent in both countries, once the formality of those first social events were over, if the relationship became more personal, there was a clear shift of the expenses to my date which was invariably insisted upon strenuously by them.

And the views of my female friends from both countries is closer to being a bit shocked that anyone would expect otherwise.

The second and third generation Asians here are a bit more open to women sometimes paying, and I regarded that as being more Americanized until this discussion which hints at it being more generational.

[Tyrien]

Originally Posted by MMM

Women may not require men to provide for them financially, but traditionally a family is not just a husband and wife but children as well. Sacrifices have to be made, so chances are someone will reduce or quit their job in order to take care of the children. The majority of the time that is the mother.

Not today.

There's a plethora of stay at home dads, but in most cases both parents are working to support their children and the home required to support their children.

Originally Posted by MMM

Serious dating (where one is looking for a life partner / spouse traditionally involve the presentations of one can bring to the marriage contract.

People often date with the aim of a long term relationship. Today we rarely date for the conscious aim of marriage. Somewhere down the line thoughts of whether or not one may want to marry the other do occur.

Honestly, I would consider anyone who consciously makes the thoughts akin to "gee, would I want to marry them" within the first few months of dating delusional, and maybe even crazy. Especially in the context of the first few dates.

Originally Posted by MMM

That is not what I said and not what I inferred. Never did I express any indication of "dominance" in my post.

A man needs to sell himself to a potential life partner, just as a woman needs to, in turn sell herself. They must present themselves as worthy mates.

One of the ways men do this is by showing they have the ability to give his potential spouse financial independence. A woman will, traditionally, in turn show that she can take care of her husband and family while the husband is at work making money. These are the traditions I spoke of. That has nothing to do with dominance, but has to do with taking the roles to make a family work. This is more than traditional and cultural, but is biological. We see this in the animal world.

You did infer it. You inferred it when suggesting tradition is how to go about dating/taking women out to dinner.

Traditionally speaking a man play the dominant role, and (though I tried to avoid saying it earlier) a woman plays the submissive role.

Originally Posted by MMM

Why would you think relationships were less "emotional" "then" then they are "now"?

Young people not looking for life-mates are "casually dating" and may be looking for emotional satisfaction. Another way of saying they are filling a hole in their lives, no?

and you're moving away from where I clarified financial independence :/

Originally Posted by MMM

The desire to procreate is not cultural or generational. It is biological.

It's very cultural and/or genrational, nor did I say the desire, but need.

Originally Posted by MMM

You may be fine with casually dating someone who can't pay for a meal. However, are you going to want to marry that person?

Paying for a meal is the least of my concerns when dating someone.

As I mentioned it's incredibly easy and within the realm of reason that most people living in a modern capitalist society are able to achieve financial independence (yes I Count paycheck to paycheck independence). With that being the case it's not a matter of "can't", but whether or not the other is willing to.

Personally I believe it's fine for one or the other to offer to pay. I do believe it's fair that the bill is split though, or just separate at first. The date isn't about the food or who pays for it, it's about communication. After a while of dating there may or may not be a mutual understanding about how the bill works, but that is subjective to the personalities of the couple.

Again, when I date I'm not even thinking about marriage, or spending my life with the person. I'm thinking whether or not she likes me, but more importantly if I like her enough to have dinner with her again.

If marriage is supposed to be an institution bounded together by love, then you cannot just decide like that. You fall for someone over time.

Originally Posted by MMM

I am curious as to what you think my "cultural experience" is. I have lived most of my life in the Pacific NW, but have lived a few years in Japan.

Specifics do not matter.

What I am saying is I am fully aware that you're from a different generation than I am, possibly two generations (sorry, never payed enough attention or care to find your exact age, I just know you're fairly older than I) . You've grown up in a different world than I, therefore; you're emphasis on what's traditional.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Not today.

There's a plethora of stay at home dads, but in most cases both parents are working to support their children and the home required to support their children.

You are not suggesting the majority of stay at home parents are the fathers, and not the mothers, are you? Yes, there are more stay at home dads than there were 50 years ago. Still, far from a majority.

In this economy there are more two-income households than there were a few decades ago, but I think you can argue that is in many cases out of necessity and not out of desire.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

People often date with the aim of a long term relationship. Today we rarely date for the conscious aim of marriage. Somewhere down the line thoughts of whether or not one may want to marry the other do occur.

I don't know who "we" is. I know both men and women of "marrying age" that certainly date with the goal of finding a spouse.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Honestly, I would consider anyone who consciously makes the thoughts akin to "gee, would I want to marry them" within the first few months of dating delusional, and maybe even crazy. Especially in the context of the first few dates.

The older people get these thoughts come sooner and sooner. Especially if a woman is in her 30s and is feeling the desire to start a family.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

You did infer it. You inferred it when suggesting tradition is how to go about dating/taking women out to dinner.

This is a forum, and all we have are words on a screen. Either quote me or don't, but please don't insert things I didn't say. Never never never did I infer a man is taking dominance over a woman by paying for a date. Quite the opposite. What I said is traditionally a man is showing a woman he can take care of her financially by paying for a date. That is where the tradition comes from.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Traditionally speaking a man play the dominant role, and (though I tried to avoid saying it earlier) a woman plays the submissive role.

Those are relative terms. However, I am not sure where dominance and submissiveness fits into this conversation.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

and you're moving away from where I clarified financial independence :/

It's very cultural and/or genrational, nor did I say the desire, but need.

The desire or need to procreate is not cultural or generational, it is biological. We know this because it is universal over all cultures and all generations.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Paying for a meal is the least of my concerns when dating someone.

As I mentioned it's incredibly easy and within the realm of reason that most people living in a modern capitalist society are able to achieve financial independence (yes I Count paycheck to paycheck independence). With that being the case it's not a matter of "can't", but whether or not the other is willing to.

Personally I believe it's fine for one or the other to offer to pay. I do believe it's fair that the bill is split though, or just separate at first. The date isn't about the food or who pays for it, it's about communication. After a while of dating there may or may not be a mutual understanding about how the bill works, but that is subjective to the personalities of the couple.

This is the point you are missing. The paying of the bill IS communication.

If I were to ask a woman out on a date, and she refused to allow me to pay the bill, I would find it offensive.

At the same time if I were a woman and a man asked me out on a date, and then at the end of dinner said "OK, you owe 40 dollars" I would be in shock.

This ritual is part of dating and communication.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Again, when I date I'm not even thinking about marriage, or spending my life with the person. I'm thinking whether or not she likes me, but more importantly if I like her enough to have dinner with her again.

If marriage is supposed to be an institution bounded together by love, then you cannot just decide like that. You fall for someone over time.

That's fine. I am not saying anyone decides their life mate after one date. BUt if you are attracted to her, do you not feel the desire to treat her to a meal?

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Specifics do not matter.

What I am saying is I am fully aware that you're from a different generation than I am, possibly two generations (sorry, never payed enough attention or care to find your exact age, I just know you're fairly older than I) . You've grown up in a different world than I, therefore; you're emphasis on what's traditional.

If I were two generations older than you, you would not have been born yet.

My guess is you are still of "casual dating" age with no thoughts or desires to think about marriage.

I can tell you women much younger than me still expect a man to pay for a date when he asks her out. That's a tradition that isn't going to change any time soon.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Any functional* adult living in a capitalist** society does not require marriage to provide financial independence within their lives.

Women do not require men to provide for them financially***; likewise men do not require women to prepare their meals or clean their homes.****.

Require - No. Expect - most of the time, Yes.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

*** For all intents and purposes men and women are socially and economically equal in the modern capitalist society we are referencing in this topic. Though it is arguable on average women make less than men, it is a negligible difference when speaking of financial independence.

**** With strives in technological convenience it's entirely possible and not overtaxing to feed one's self and maintain a living environment.

Your vision of the world is fantasy compared to mine. The U.S I have been living in does not have gender parity for salaries, is dealing with escalating unemployment which tends to affect lower paid employees (women) more often, and there numbers of people unable to meet basic living expenses is also rising.

Originally Posted by Tyrien

Now here's the problem with discussing topics that stem off a question of how people behave, or what the social standard is. We all see so many TV shows, movies, animes, video games, and read so many books, comics, mangas, novels, and stories that we delude ourselves into thinking we know for certain how people always behave, or what they want.

No, we ALL do not.
I spend the majority of my time dealing with real people in the real world, not someone else's fictional creations, and your descriptions seem closer to the your imaginary versions of social standards.

[SHAD0W]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

If a guy didn't like that then I wouldn't like him.

Hahaha! That's ma girl! And just for the above comments I'm taking you for food when I'm back, my treat

[bolay]

WoW, reading all off this thread make my head spinning
but I guess everyone have her/his own opinion about dating and about paying
just do what you want as long as you happy

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by MMM

In this economy there are more two-income households than there were a few decades ago, but I think you can argue that is in many cases out of necessity and not out of desire.

In my experience it's mostly out of desire rather than necessity. Most (western) women I know are intelligent and tertiary educated and like to work if for no other reason than they find being a housewife one of the most boring things imaginable. Although they have to take some maternity leave after having a kid most I know can't wait to get back into the workforce. My own wife took about 6 months off work after we had our daughter but being at home all day being a mum was driving her nuts. She got back into work as soon as we could get our girl into day care.

I certainly have no feelings of having to be the provider simply because I'm male. I could think of nothing better than having a successful, rich wife who could keep me in a life of leisure!!

This does contrast quite starkly though to my Japanese friends. There does seem to be much more of an acceptance here by women to fulfill a more traditional role of housewife and stay at home mum than amongst western women I know.

[YukisUke]

Originally Posted by MMM

For the most part, when a man asks a woman on a date he WANTS to take her out, show her a good time, and treat her.

This is part of the male id. (as in id, ego, super-ego). If a man asks a woman out for a date and they have dinner, etc., and at the end of the meal she pulls our her wallet and says "So, how much do I owe you?" it would completely ruin the mood.

Ladies, understand. Men LOOK FORWARD to taking women they like out for dinner. This is why they work. We work to make money in order to be able to do things like this. This is what single men want to spend their money on. There is nothing more emasculating than a woman who refuses to let a man treat her like a women.

YukisUke, if you feel like you have to pay for a date once in a while, let the man know in advance. Tell him you want to take him to some place you really like. Still, this may be an uncomfortable situation for him. But if you give him the warning to mentally prepare for it, it may work out and his ego won't be too bruised.

I know I'm a little off subject here but.... those terms that you used (id, ego, super-ego) were in my psychology class. That was the best class I ever took. Love it!!!

As for the date thing, I'll definitely give him a warning whenever I want to pay.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GoNative

In my experience it's mostly out of desire rather than necessity. Most (western) women I know are intelligent and tertiary educated and like to work if for no other reason than they find being a housewife one of the most boring things imaginable. Although they have to take some maternity leave after having a kid most I know can't wait to get back into the workforce. My own wife took about 6 months off work after we had our daughter but being at home all day being a mum was driving her nuts. She got back into work as soon as we could get our girl into day care.

I certainly have no feelings of having to be the provider simply because I'm male. I could think of nothing better than having a successful, rich wife who could keep me in a life of leisure!!

This does contrast quite starkly though to my Japanese friends. There does seem to be much more of an acceptance here by women to fulfill a more traditional role of housewife and stay at home mum than amongst western women I know.

You know, it really just depends. I know women that are looking forward to going back to work....once their kids are in school fulltime, or once their kids are old enough to take care of themselves after school (about junior high). For some women I know the idea of day care is repulsive. They don't want to miss the first steps or first words or want strangers spending more time with their children than them.

I am not saying one way is right and one is wrong, but there are different ways of approaching the issue.

Originally Posted by YukisUke

I know I'm a little off subject here but.... those terms that you used (id, ego, super-ego) were in my psychology class. That was the best class I ever took. Love it!!!

As for the date thing, I'll definitely give him a warning whenever I want to pay.

He'll appreciate that.

[GoNative]

Yeah everyone is different. Most western women I know just find being housewives and stay at home mums incredibly boring.
Our main reason for day care though is so from an early age our daughter is learning Japanese and making Japanese friends. Being a full blooded round eye she is always going to stand out in this country but if she grows up with other young Japanese kids and speaks the language fluently hopefully she won't be treated too differently. She seems to love it at least.