Do Japanese guys pay for meals/outings for female friends?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Yeah everyone is different. Most western women I know just find being housewives and stay at home mums incredibly boring.
Our main reason for day care though is so from an early age our daughter is learning Japanese and making Japanese friends. Being a full blooded round eye she is always going to stand out in this country but if she grows up with other young Japanese kids and speaks the language fluently hopefully she won't be treated too differently. She seems to love it at least.

That isn't true about Western women in my experience. Most of the American women I know that want to focus on their careers (and travel) have chosen not to have kids at all. The majority of the moms are stay-at-home or work at home, or "baito" while the kids are at school. "Boring" has never been a word I have heard regarding raising a child, much less "incredibly boring".

Some of the moms I know that do work wish they could be stay-at-home moms, but for financial reasons, or fear of their career ending, are forced to go back to work.

That makes sense with the day care. If you live in Japan but live in an English-speaking household it is better to get the Japanese from somewhere.

[GoNative]

Well you're little part of America is very different to where I lived in Australia then. But then as I pointed out most of the women I've known in my adult life are tertiary educated and somewhat career driven. Most I know also now have families (I'm nearly 40 so most of my friends now have families) and few if any have decided to be stay at home mums. I don't think in Australia there is any sort of stigma associated with sending your kids to day care, in fact it's just considered very normal. In the group of friends I have it would be considered quite unusual for mums not to return to the workforce within a year or two of having a kid. Everywhere is different and even amongst 'Western' countries there can be big differences I guess. Certainly these days in Australia it would be pretty difficult for most families to earn enough money with only 1 parent working.

As I said earlier I only wish my wife earned enough so that I didn't have to work. That would be bliss!!

[bolay]

Originally Posted by GoNative

As I said earlier I only wish my wife earned enough so that I didn't have to work. That would be bliss!!

Whoa, that so selfish of u(I think)
But yeach, just like u said, everyone is different

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by bolay

Whoa, that so selfish of u(I think)
But yeach, just like u said, everyone is different

But the other way around it wouldn`t be..?

I see nothing wrong with that sort of wishful thinking. Now, if he were forcing his wife to work long hours so that he could lay around the house - that would be a problem.

[bolay]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But the other way around it wouldn`t be..?

I see nothing wrong with that sort of wishful thinking. Now, if he were forcing his wife to work long hours so that he could lay around the house - that would be a problem.

But he said that he wish that he didn't have to work ... Then what he's gonna do everyday if his wife covered all
The other way around wouldn't be called selfish, in my opinion, because that a man job to support the whole family, if needed the wife could support too.
I just think if a man thinkin that way it would be so selfish... become pregnant, give birth, etc, only women can do it and it's hard (looking @ my mother) so why would a man let his women do others thing if not needed or his woman wanted it.
then again it just my opinion, i'm not married (yet) so i don't really know

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

That isn't true about Western women in my experience. Most of the American women I know that want to focus on their careers (and travel) have chosen not to have kids at all. The majority of the moms are stay-at-home or work at home, or "baito" while the kids are at school. "Boring" has never been a word I have heard regarding raising a child, much less "incredibly boring".

My mother never described it as boring. She always explained it as "climbing the walls screaming." I reckon it's not boredom per se that drives a lot of women back to work, it's the isolation. A awful lot of mothers with small babies end up stuck inside the house all day, and don't see anyone until their partner comes home in the evening (assuming they have one), and even then they might be too tired to bother talking much. How many people do you know who often just come home from work, eat and then veg in front of the box? And that can go on for MONTHS.

Even if you're not career driven, to go from a full active working and social life (which are likely to be interlinked; colleagues as friends etc) to an endless exhausted and mundane round of feeds, sleeps, changes and daytime TV, that's a fairly big come down. This isn't to say that it has any impact on how much they love their kids, or enjoy being with them, but it maybe effects how they see themselves and their role and their future. Or they can feel guilty for no longer being able to 'pull their weight' like they were before, even if there's not a financial need for them to do so. Especially in the west, where being an educated woman also means you're told endlessly that being a stay-at-home mum is tantamount to failure, and even if you don't believe that, there's this stigma that being a mother = lesser status, which is depressing.

Plus they've either got two options- you socialize with other mothers and their kids, which is great, but can end up wholly about the kids and for their sake alone and so nothing substantial, or you go out sans bebe with your friends who don't have children, but then discover your whole life has narrowed considerably and you suddenly have nothing 'interesting' to talk about. I'm sure we've all been there; had the friend who's had a kid and gone from having lots to say about everything to being unable to offer nothing unless it's an anecdote about little Jimmy's latest developments. (divorcees can be just as bad.)

And frankly, keeping working is good for you. You stay sharper. Of all my friends mums, the ones who have kept some kind of career are happier, brighter and more confident, and have remained more equal to their husbands than the ones who have been housewives for 30 years. Let me tell you, some of those examples of housewifery and stay-at home mothering are downright terrifying to someone my age.

[Nyororin]

I think that society, to an extent, pushes parents into isolation. It isn`t necessary that you stay at home all the time and do nothing for yourself... It`s just the way that "advances" in childcare have pushed it.
There seems to be a culture of all or nothing when it comes to parenting, when that can`t be good for anyone involved.

I have a child and my life does not revolve around him, nor did it ever. I did very little differently once I was caring for him. But my philosophy was more that he was simply an addition to my already existing life - not that I needed to change the whole world to care for him.

It seems, at least to my eyes, that in the west there is a very strong line drawn between those who take care of the children and the rest of the "real world". In Japan that is a bit more blurred. This is why - to the often noted shock and horror of western visitors to Japan - you`ll see parents out with their children at bars or late in the evening. It isn`t poor parenting - it`s continuing life but with child in tow.

There is no inherent reason that you can`t go out and take your child with you - other than the eyes of "society"... Which seem to be particularly passionate about the subject in the west. It seems these days babies are close to taboo in public places that aren`t specifically set aside for parents. There always seems to be something in the news from somewhere about people getting offended when a parent brought a baby into some "adult" venue like... Oh, a cafe... Or the shock and horror of a mother feeding her baby in public. And not just by breast - people don`t want to see babies sucking on a bottle either it seems.

If society pressures you and you think that you shouldn`t be out doing anything for yourself because you have to be an ultra responsible parent now... You`re just going to become more and more frustrated, more and more isolated, and less a person than you were before. If you build walls, it won`t take long to find you`re stuck inside them.

Who is to say that you have to be stuck inside the house all day with a baby? Babies sleep better when in noisy environments and while being jostled about. Babies aren`t that exciting. Once you figure out how to change a diaper and clothes, and feed one... You`d might as well be out somewhere.

Plus they've either got two options- you socialize with other mothers and their kids, which is great, but can end up wholly about the kids and for their sake alone and so nothing substantial, or you go out sans bebe with your friends who don't have children

Why are these the only options? I mean this honestly. Why can`t you take your baby out with your childless friends? Why can`t you go out without baby with other mothers who also haven`t brought their babies along? Sure you probably can`t go out binge drinking or to a night club with baby in tow - but you couldn`t the whole time you were pregnant either... And there are countless other things you can do with baby adhered - without them getting in the way.

I don`t know. It`s just a bit strange to me as my life didn`t particularly change once I had a kid. My life does not revolve around him, never has and never will. I just learned to find ways to continue doing things I wanted with him stuck on the side. Contrary to the teachings of various western parenting books, you can hold your baby all day and keep them from crying... and not only will they not become spoiled, but they`ll be quieter, happier, and sleep more than enough to keep you from being sleep deprived at night.

ETA;
Using your mind keeps you sharper. You don`t have to be paid for it.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I think that society, to an extent, pushes parents into isolation. It isn`t necessary that you stay at home all the time and do nothing for yourself... It`s just the way that "advances" in childcare have pushed it.
There seems to be a culture of all or nothing when it comes to parenting, when that can`t be good for anyone involved.

I wholeheartedly agree. There's this awful dichotomy around aimed at women thinking of having kids that you should be a super eco-mum, breast-feed, give them organic stuff, stay at home etc etc, or else your children will grow up to be diseased warped delinquents, but then you should also be a sexy high-flown career lady too, and still do the 'double shift' with the housework. It's all guilt-tripping and pushy.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I have a child and my life does not revolve around him, nor did it ever. I did very little differently once I was caring for him. But my philosophy was more that he was simply an addition to my already existing life - not that I needed to change the whole world to care for him.
It seems, at least to my eyes, that in the west there is a very strong line drawn between those who take care of the children and the rest of the "real world". In Japan that is a bit more blurred. This is why - to the often noted shock and horror of western visitors to Japan - you`ll see parents out with their children at bars or late in the evening. It isn`t poor parenting - it`s continuing life but with child in tow.

You see that in Europe too, some places, and like you say, it's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, in some ways it's a good thing; there's a pretty famous study that looked at african women who took their babies to work in the fields with them. Because they were in close contact all day, they tended to have more stable relationships, and unlike the western view, that wasn't something that they had to actively work at. It was just circumstantial to the way they lived with their children. And definitely there's this issue that the west views having kids as having to change roles dramatically, rather than just make an addition to the list. It's very much a status thing. With one tongue society tells you 'it's wonderful to be a mother' and with the other they hiss 'you loser'.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

There is no inherent reason that you can`t go out and take your child with you - other than the eyes of "society"... Which seem to be particularly passionate about the subject in the west. It seems these days babies are close to taboo in public places that aren`t specifically set aside for parents. There always seems to be something in the news from somewhere about people getting offended when a parent brought a baby into some "adult" venue like... Oh, a cafe... Or the shock and horror of a mother feeding her baby in public. And not just by breast - people don`t want to see babies sucking on a bottle either it seems.

This really gets up my nose too. Outside of urban areas, there's a real lack of practical infrastructure aimed towards people with small children. I live in a pretty small town, but there's no public changing facilities provided, and very few cafe's where you can squeeze in a buggy or a push-chair. Only two I know of actively cater for children (asides Macdonalds, I mean), and provide highchairs and bits, and both are exceptional to the rule being organic vegan cafes which are already bucking the trend (they're also really good to disabled people).
Children under 14 are banned from all the pubs in town, bar none. After a certain hour you have to provide over-18 ID to even order food and soft-drinks. You have to drive out of town to find somewhere that caters for children, and even then you're regulated to the garden usually, because they don't allow kids in the bar area. There's no parent and child dedicated parking spaces in the central carpark, so if you can't get a space there, you're stuck in the outer carpark and that's got a two-story footbridge to cross to get to the shops. Two large flights of stairs with a push-chair/child in tow can be fairly discouraging. There's legislation which says large-scale retail developments have to provide such things, but nothing for municipal parking areas in general. And it's not just mothers either. One of our local chain shops got in trouble because they stopped a parent taking a baby into the baby changing area. Why? Because it was the father with the baby and the changing area was inside the ladies toilets. Similarly a guy at one office i've worked at had trouble because the rules about mixed-development meant there weren't any day-cares or creche's anywhere near his work, and they wouldn't take his kids because if something went wrong, he'd be too far away to deal with it. This might paint a bleak picture of the UK, but that's often what it's like.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I Why are these the only options? I mean this honestly. Why can`t you take your baby out with your childless friends? Why can`t you go out without baby with other mothers who also haven`t brought their babies along? Sure you probably can`t go out binge drinking or to a night club with baby in tow - but you couldn`t the whole time you were pregnant either... And there are countless other things you can do with baby adhered - without them getting in the way.

*laughs* Ok, I concede this one. You're quite right, there are more options than I put forth, I guess I was just channelling the frustrations of a couple of girls I know. Both are first-timers and they say it can be really hard because you meet lots of mothers at nursery and things, who could be great friends, but really you only end up talking to whoever is the parent of the kid your kid plays with, and it tends to be more about the kids friendship than building your own. It's a community thing I guess; in my village people really just don't know each other or they're set in established cliques. The other one especially had a while where she kept refusing to go out with her particular group of friends (not crazy drinking and dancing) because the others all had work and study and things to talk about, and she said she felt dull and frumpy in comparison or if she took the kid, it felt like she was holding the group up. I mean, no one said anything, and even she didn't think they actually thought of her like that, but she couldn't help feel it in herself.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I ETA;
Using your mind keeps you sharper. You don`t have to be paid for it.

This is very true, and now you mention it, the ladies I do unpaid volunteering with don't have 'careers' in that sort of sense, but they're wonderfully sharp and lively. Motivation to keep up with things can slide though, if you wipe out over your kids from all the pressure to be a 'good' mother. It's more the regular activity, sense of achievement and so on that you get from working that's important than the career prospects. At least there's the internet and mumsnet, nowadays. You can get involved with all sorts of things without even leaving the house. I guess I've just seen too many of my mum's generation who really were all-or-nothing mothers and didn't have that support and then somewhere along the line, as the kids got older and more independent, something broke.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Columbine

My mother never described it as boring. She always explained it as "climbing the walls screaming." I reckon it's not boredom per se that drives a lot of women back to work, it's the isolation. A awful lot of mothers with small babies end up stuck inside the house all day, and don't see anyone until their partner comes home in the evening (assuming they have one), and even then they might be too tired to bother talking much. How many people do you know who often just come home from work, eat and then veg in front of the box? And that can go on for MONTHS.

Even if you're not career driven, to go from a full active working and social life (which are likely to be interlinked; colleagues as friends etc) to an endless exhausted and mundane round of feeds, sleeps, changes and daytime TV, that's a fairly big come down. This isn't to say that it has any impact on how much they love their kids, or enjoy being with them, but it maybe effects how they see themselves and their role and their future. Or they can feel guilty for no longer being able to 'pull their weight' like they were before, even if there's not a financial need for them to do so. Especially in the west, where being an educated woman also means you're told endlessly that being a stay-at-home mum is tantamount to failure, and even if you don't believe that, there's this stigma that being a mother = lesser status, which is depressing.

Plus they've either got two options- you socialize with other mothers and their kids, which is great, but can end up wholly about the kids and for their sake alone and so nothing substantial, or you go out sans bebe with your friends who don't have children, but then discover your whole life has narrowed considerably and you suddenly have nothing 'interesting' to talk about. I'm sure we've all been there; had the friend who's had a kid and gone from having lots to say about everything to being unable to offer nothing unless it's an anecdote about little Jimmy's latest developments. (divorcees can be just as bad.)

And frankly, keeping working is good for you. You stay sharper. Of all my friends mums, the ones who have kept some kind of career are happier, brighter and more confident, and have remained more equal to their husbands than the ones who have been housewives for 30 years. Let me tell you, some of those examples of housewifery and stay-at home mothering are downright terrifying to someone my age.

Boring...mundane...isolation...

It seems some people have some very negative views about child-rearing.

Are these the actually mothers using these terms to describe their lives with their children?

I kind of doubt it. The mothers I talk to wouldn't change a thing. Sure it's exhausting, but that doesn't mean it isn't rewarding. Not a mom I know would have traded working or a career for raising their child...being there to see those firsts.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

Boring...mundane...isolation...

It seems some people have some very negative views about child-rearing.

Are these the actually mothers using these terms to describe their lives with their children?

I kind of doubt it. The mothers I talk to wouldn't change a thing. Sure it's exhausting, but that doesn't mean it isn't rewarding. Not a mom I know would have traded working or a career for raising their child...being there to see those firsts.

No, of course not. The problems with being a modern mother generally have no bearing on how much they love their children or means they resent having had them. I don't know any mother who blames her kids for the sacrifices that have had to be made for them. It's more the society that foists on them this need to stop being everything else that they are and boil down to this role, which is then looked down upon. Whatever way you look at it, there's a lot of internal conflict. Amongst my age group there's girls who want children and want to be mothers, yet don't see motherhood as it's presented to them as this glowing beacon of aspiration, but something of a minefield with as much loss as gain.