Inevitable Choice to Avoid War

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

He actually compared why the torpedo pieces couldn't be a Soviet design. While EU and the USA prohibited North Korea of getting sensitive western equipments. And he debunked that Reuters article... that claims that it was a German torpedo. Reuters reported that it was a Soviet design after the investigation "officially" claimed that it was a Soviet design.

Wait... has it been clearly established that it was a German made torpedo? I mean the only link was that a particular alloy composition was found that could be linked to a German-made weapon. I dont know much about torpedos... but the latter does not necessarily make the former true.

Anyway the Russian report will be released soon. Im interested to see what they have to say about the incident. It is pretty much beyond speculation that the Russians will come to the conclusion that a torpedo hit the Cheonan. Though whose torpedo they think it is will be interesting to find out.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Aniki

I'd like to see you try.

Aniki you know full well its called perception. what you see as evil i might not and vice verse. I find cross country banter about whose more evil hilarious for reason any intelligent person could figure out.

[steven]

All of the "news" stories I find are mostly quoting politicians... where's all of the hard evidence? Is this stuff available? If it is, shouldn't we be looking at that before this goes any further? I'd like to start seeing some facts about this incident.

It becomes more and more obvious that information and communication are extremely important. When you take them away people can justify anything including wars (without having to rely on facts or science to prove allegations).

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by steven

All of the "news" stories I find are mostly quoting politicians... where's all of the hard evidence? Is this stuff available? If it is, shouldn't we be looking at that before this goes any further? I'd like to start seeing some facts about this incident.

Um... there was a whole REPORT that was released regarding the incident and is available if you search "Cheonan incident report". Perhaps you might want to read that?

Investigation Result on the Sinking of ROKS "Cheonan"

The original report is at the bottom of the page.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

He actually compared why the torpedo pieces couldn't be a Soviet design. While EU and the USA prohibited North Korea of getting sensitive western equipments. And he debunked that Reuters article... that claims that it was a German torpedo. Reuters reported that it was a Soviet design after the investigation "officially" claimed that it was a Soviet design.

Whether you like it or not, 50% of South Koreans don't believe what you believe in. And they are getting stronge enough to challenge the president and the US government.

If it was really North Korea, how come the Russian government had hard time accepting the official findings? And Russia is no longer a close ally of North Korea. This only tells us that something's wrong with the official evidences.

Comical, challenge the US government? There would be no South Korea if it were not for America, would there? The vast majority of Korea's gross national product is consumed by America. America could bankrupt Korea with the signing of an unfavorable trade agreement. And it wouldn't harm America even 1%

Interesting news today about the arrival of three US Ohio class submarines in the Pacific region. Any one of these three submarines by itself surpasses the entire naval might of China, Japan, South Korea, and North Korea combined. The power of 3 of them together is scarcely imaginable. Tell me exactly what kind of challenge Korea can enforce against America, I'm very interested to hear about it.

And, for the sake of your argument, if your suppositions are entirely true, so what? It's not like anyone really needs to foment a phony crisis to make North Korea look bad, they do a wonderful enough job by themselves.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Comical, challenge the US government? There would be no South Korea if it were not for America, would there? The vast majority of Korea's gross national product is consumed by America. America could bankrupt Korea with the signing of an unfavorable trade agreement. And it wouldn't harm America even 1%

Interesting news today about the arrival of three US Ohio class submarines in the Pacific region. Any one of these three submarines by itself surpasses the entire naval might of China, Japan, South Korea, and North Korea combined. The power of 3 of them together is scarcely imaginable. Tell me exactly what kind of challenge Korea can enforce against America, I'm very interested to hear about it.

Whoa there, chickenhawk. If you really hate North Korea, why won't you pull Rambo stunts and kill some Red Communist soldiers with your own hands. While I'll remain peaceful without thinking of military interventions. We young South Koreans know North Korea sometimes do crazy stuffs but we don't necessarily hate it. Think of this as tough love.

Here's a semi-neutral article for you: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/op...yers.html?_r=1

I was born in South Korea right before the 1988 Summer Olympics. This is a generation that usually sympathizes with North Korea beyond ideological reasons. To us, America antagonizing North Korea is irrational.

Second, finance is the bigger weapon than nuclear weapons IMO. Better worry about your country's epic amount of debt than some war vessels near China. You are better off kicking out Chinese military and industrial spies in the USA.

Third, Government protests Russia (website). As a conscious Korean-Canadian, I <3 Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev who try to bring better indirect stability to East Asia than the American foreign policies.

And, for the sake of your argument, if your suppositions are entirely true, so what? It's not like anyone really needs to foment a phony crisis to make North Korea look bad, they do a wonderful enough job by themselves

On the other hand, thank goodness the pro-NK party just won the South Korean regional election last month. This wasn't a victory of democracy. This was how a South Korean pro-American party is collapsing from the inside a couple of years ago along with on-going financial-related corruptions.

I hope you understand some of the current situations in South Korea. I know it's very hard for average Americans to understand this.

[Ryzorian]

Nobody is going to fight, so why worry about it? The U.S. isn't willing to lauch a strike against North Korea and it's 60,000 artillery pieces at the moment so why would North Korea give the U.S. a serious reason to attack? Kim Il may be a nut job but he isn't stupid. The US would wipe the floor with him in a major engagement. So the whole thing is just political postureing.

[Atredies]

check this out

S. Korean General Arrested for Leaking Battle Plans | Asia | English
Report: S. Korea General Arrested For Spying - Defense News

i guess many north korean spies exist in the south korean government and in the heart of american military bases stationed in south korea.

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

Nobody is going to fight, so why worry about it? The U.S. isn't willing to lauch a strike against North Korea and it's 60,000 artillery pieces at the moment so why would North Korea give the U.S. a serious reason to attack? Kim Il may be a nut job but he isn't stupid. The US would wipe the floor with him in a major engagement. So the whole thing is just political postureing.

very accurate sir.

[steven]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The original report is at the bottom of the page.

I appreciate it. That's what I was looking for. Unfortunately it wasn't what I was looking for. I didn't get a lot out of that but hearsay like pieces of evidence. I also found out how big a NK torpedo is. That's great... but although the document clearly states "There is no other plausible explination", other than that "the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine", the document doesn't do a very good job of proving that or even supporting it with any actual evidence or data.

25 experts from 10 top Korean expert agencies, 22 military experts, 3 experts recommended by the National Assembly, and 24 foreign experts consisting of four support teams from the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the Kingdom of Sweden. I'm sure there are some remarkable people in there... but what a vague description.

And no I don't go around reading these kinds of things all the time. Are all these kinds of documents like this?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by steven

I appreciate it. That's what I was looking for. Unfortunately it wasn't what I was looking for. I didn't get a lot out of that but hearsay like pieces of evidence. I also found out how big a NK torpedo is. That's great... but although the document clearly states "There is no other plausible explination", other than that "the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine", the document doesn't do a very good job of proving that or even supporting it with any actual evidence or data.

25 experts from 10 top Korean expert agencies, 22 military experts, 3 experts recommended by the National Assembly, and 24 foreign experts consisting of four support teams from the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the Kingdom of Sweden. I'm sure there are some remarkable people in there... but what a vague description.

And no I don't go around reading these kinds of things all the time. Are all these kinds of documents like this?

What exactly were you looking for? The report gives its findings and its conclusions in fairly simple terms. It wasn't vague at all. In fact I think it was very clear who they blamed and why. I mean if it wasnt NK who was it? Now if you are a conspiracy theorist like komitsuki, then the report is not going to give you the answers because that is what they are disputing (I dont dismiss his theory altogether, though I dont really buy it. I mean if it was a false flag attack, Im still waiting for the follow up )