Hostile Hostels Article in Japan Times

[Tsuwabuki]

Huh, so let's see. The reason the policy was instituted was based on the fact that at one point, some specific group of non-Japanese were a bunch of jerks, so there is now a presumption that ALL non-Japanese will be jerks.

That sounds pretty racist to me.

Think about it this way. If I had a group of black people come into my establishment whose English was so heavily entrenched in AAVE (African-American Vernacular English) that I couldn't understand them, and they proceeded to ignore my cultural rules egregiously, I would then be justified in disallowing ALL blacks from my establishment or segregating them into black areas?

Wow. Just wow. When you choose to categorise everyone by some trait in order to determine some sort of shared inferiority or deficiency (in this case, failure to follow rules, failure to research the culture, and failure to at least try to speak the language), you are engaging in discrimination and bigotry. When it is based on the idea that only ethnic Japanese are capable of the proper decision making, and others are not, that's crystal clear racism.

Having the establishment make an exception for the "well spoken Gaijin" is the same as saying, "Well, I'll make an exception for this black guy, because he sounds like he was educated in a prep school and not on mean streets of Fifth Ward in Houston."

The establishment may well prefer a proper bath taking non-Japanese person to a Japanese person who cannot take a bath properly, but I don't think a group of rowdy Japanese people who act like jerks and disobey the rules would lead to the establishment banning all Japanese people! I bet it wouldn't even lead to banning given groups (ie, it was college students who were in the wrong, let's ban all 大学生!) of Japanese people with a shared trait.

Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I find both gaijin and foreigner offensive. In the 21st century, such terms have next to no real meaning, and repeating them is giving them a power they don't deserve.

I do concur with you that Debito is, as I have said, an instigator. And he is much too aggressive, more likely to yell at you than to slowly work on your preconceptions and bigotry. I agree with his sentiments, but I don't like his tactics.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Also, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I find both gaijin and foreigner offensive. In the 21st century, such terms have next to no real meaning, and repeating them is giving them a power they don't deserve.

Just out of curiosity, what do you suggest as a collective name for a group of non-Japanese? I mean, I understand not liking the use of the term "gaijin."

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

HAAVE (African-American Vernacular English)

Is this a real term? I grew up in Baltimore and I never heard this lol.

[Tsuwabuki]

The problem with language is that there are Japanese citizens who are not ethnically Japanese. Like Debito is an American-Japanese, or the Finnish-Japanese diet member. So I would say a non-ethnic Japanese citizen. I would refer to non-Japanese as anyone who is neither ethnically Japanese nor a citizen of Japan. I would indicate a person who is ethnically Japanese but a citizen elsewhere as a Japanese-, like Japanese-American.

I prefer to make distinctions by nationality, and not by race, and prefer to refer to people who legally reside in a country other than their origin as a legal resident.

I believe that would be: 非永住者, since I do not have permanent residency, I would be a hieijyuusha.

BT

Ebonics. But that is considered a racial slur, and I refuse to use it. As part of my education to be an English teacher, I studied the rather significant differences between standard American English and AAVE.

African American Vernacular English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

The problem with language is that there are Japanese citizens who are not ethnically Japanese. Like Debito is an American-Japanese, or the Finnish-Japanese diet member. So I would say a non-ethnic Japanese citizen. I would refer to non-Japanese as anyone who is neither ethnically Japanese nor a citizen of Japan. I would indicate a person who is ethnically Japanese but a citizen elsewhere as a Japanese-, like Japanese-American.

I prefer to make distinctions by nationality, and not by race, and prefer to refer to people who legally reside in a country other than their origin as a legal resident.

I believe that would be: 非永住者, since I do not have permanent residency, I would be a hiejyuusha.

BT

Ebonics. But that is considered a racial slur, and I refuse to use it. As part of my education to be an English teacher, I studied the rather significant differences between standard American English and AAVE.

African American Vernacular English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I see, I just wondered about a collective group when there were too many people to identify each individual nationality.

As for Ebonics, that's what I'm used to hearing. Where I went to school, there was a significant African American student population (just under 90 percent of ~2000 students), so naturally the school catered to this demographic with everything from "Soul Food Fridays" to various classes in African American music, literature, history etc. I'd never heard AAVE used before, even by the teachers. It was common to just use Ebonics when the topic arose, and no one made a deal out of it. I guess someone had to slap a name on it though, so I've learned something new today

[cranks]

GoNative and Tsuwabuki,
I'm not supporting the "Japanese Only" policy at all. I think it should be condemned. However, if you really know WHY it happened in the first place, and if you truly understand Japanese culture, you can't just say 30% of Japanese population are hardcore racists who refuse to service foreigners just because they hate them. He's pretty much making it sound like it, and that sure piss other Japanese people off.

Let's say we've got a bunch of Martian in town. They are pretty similar to us but don't know the culture on Earth. They don't use silverware when they eat, and use their hands instead. In their culture burping at table and spitting is a good manner to show the host their satisfaction.

Now you have a group of them in a classy restaurant. The manager sure gets complaints from local patrons. But he doesn't speak Martian so there is not much he can do. He gets a group of Martian once a week, and more and more complaints. After 2 months, he decides to put up a sign in Martian saying "Earth people only".

Now, I'm not saying Martian should be excluded from the restaurant, but if you know both languages and cultures, shouldn't you be promoting the understandings between them? It seems to me, Debito is rather purposefully staging the dissensions.

Like in this video, he's asked for his alien registration card by a cop, super politely in my opinion.

YouTube - 反日アメリカ人 vs 洞爺湖サミット警戒中の警官

And he keeps saying "日本人です"”日本人です” . But come on. He has a strong foreign accent, and his grammar is a bit shady too. Why can't he just say "帰化したので、今は日本人なんですよ（I neutralized）". One word could have instantly solved the situation. But instead, he kept on nagging and nagging the cop. If you are asked for an ID in the states by the authority, and speak in thick Mexican accent, and goes like "Me american. Why you want ID?" and refuse to show it, you can get arrested.

I'm not saying his intension is bad, I'm not saying "Japanese Only" policy should be allowed. The lawsuit against Onsens in Hokkaido was probably a good thing. But his taking a very American approach to very Japanese problems, which is ironic considering he wants to be treated as Japanese. Regardless of what his intension is, what he's doing, at least some of them, don't look to be really promoting the real understandings between both parties. In fact, that video surely attracted some hatred towards Americans.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by cranks

GoNative and Tsuwabuki,
I'm not supporting the "Japanese Only" policy at all. I think it should be condemned. However, if you really know WHY it happened in the first place, and if you truly understand Japanese culture, you can't just say 30% of Japanese population are hardcore racists who refuse to service foreigners just because they hate them. He's pretty much making it sound like it, and that sure piss other Japanese people off.

You'll find few of us who have lived in Japan for years who think Debito's tactics are appropriate. I like the guy. I have had some pretty deep conversations with the guy, and I think his heart is in the right place. I still don't think he goes about it the right way.

You're not going to get an argument about this from MMM, Nyororin, myself, and probably not from GoNative either. Debito's antics are well known.

Let's say we've got a bunch of Martian in town. They are pretty similar to us but don't know the culture on Earth. They don't use silverware when they eat, and use their hands instead. In their culture burping at table and spitting is a good manner to show the host their satisfaction.

Now you have a group of them in a classy restaurant. The manager sure gets complaints from local patrons. But he doesn't speak Martian so there is not much he can do. He gets a group of Martian once a week, and more and more complaints. After 2 months, he decides to put up a sign in Martian saying "Earth people only".

If he can take the extra time put up a sign in Martian saying Terrans only, he can also take the extra time to put up the rules in Martian.

Now, I'm not saying Martian should be excluded from the restaurant, but if you know both languages and cultures, shouldn't you be promoting the understandings between them? It seems to me, Debito is rather purposefully staging the dissensions.

Again, Debito's tactics are generally considered to be questionable.

Like in this video, he's asked for his alien registration card by a cop, super politely in my opinion.

YouTube - 反日アメリカ人 vs 洞爺湖サミット警戒中の警官

And he keeps saying "日本人です"”日本人です” . But come on. He has a strong foreign accent, and his grammar is a bit shady too. Why can't he just say "帰化したので、今は日本人なんですよ（I neutralized）". One word could have instantly solved the situation. But instead, he kept on nagging and nagging the cop.

That's "naturalised."

You will learn, if you live in Japan even for a short while, that Japanese people can be just as sarcastic, nasty, and condescending as anyone else on the planet. Just because the Japanese language they use is textbook polite doesn't meant they're being polite.

Debito is a citizen and has every right to refuse to offer identification unless suspected of a specific crime. In which case the police officer needs to say that, and the suspicion must be based on more than just "yonder babaa saw a white face doing something she didn't like." Certainly a police officer can request identification when a person is a suspect or a material witness, and you are obligated even as a citizen to comply. You are certainly not obligated to comply just because the police officer feels like he wants to be a douchebag today and decide to determine the legal status of every non ethnic Japanese person that walks by.

If you are asked for an ID in the states by the authority, and speak in thick Mexican accent, and goes like "Me american. Why you want ID?" and refuse to show it, you can get arrested.

You can be arrested, sure, and then you sue the police for false arrest. It is unconstitutional to stop someone and check their immigration status because they look and sound "Mexican" and not because there is probable cause. That's racism. It's wrong and it's illegal.

Why do you think the Feds are suing Arizona?

You can be asked for your name. SCOTUS ruled that police can ask for your name. They cannot ask for anything else, and you cannot be penalised strictly for refusing to answer further questions or to show ID. And John Paul Stevens wrote the dissenting opinion even claiming THAT was against the Fifth Amendment.

I'm not saying his intension is bad, I'm not saying "Japanese Only" policy should be allowed. The lawsuit against Onsens in Hokkaido was probably a good thing. But his taking a very American approach to very Japanese problems, which is ironic considering he wants to be treated as Japanese. Regardless of what his intension is, what he's doing, at least some of them, don't look to be really promoting the real understandings between both parties. In fact, that video surely attracted some hatred towards Americans.

He wants to be treated as a citizen. He is not and can never be ethnically Japanese. He knows this. Even before he had citizenship, he was an activist. He followed the process, and he became a citizen. The Japanese authorities found no compelling reason to deny his petition. Therefore, his cultural background is really immaterial.

I'm also not a cultural or moral relativist, so I'm not one to think about "the Japanese way" or "the American way" on the matter of civil rights. There is only protection of rights and the oppression of rights.

[cranks]

Tsuwabuki,
Well, I'm new here so maybe Debito's antics are well known here. But just because they are well known here, it doesn't mean they have a good effect on the society. He seems like a good guy and I understand the frustration he's been through. I'm just pointing out the hard facts.

It seems like you agree what he's doing can be damaging, so I don't think we have anything to argue there. I'll just comment on some other talking points you made.

"If he can take the extra time put up a sign in Martian saying Terrans only, he can also take the extra time to put up the rules in Martian. "

I don't think so. You seem to be erudite in Japanese culture. Can you list the do's and don't do's in an Onsen in Japanese? It's not that easy.

"Debito is a citizen and has every right to refuse to offer identification unless suspected of a specific crime. "
Japanese people get asked for their IDs all the time. Actually, if he were Japanese, I don't think he got away with it that easily. The cops can nag you literally for hours if you refuse to show your ID. Now, do I think that's appropriate? No. Is it racial? No again. It's just how Japanese cops are and American cops aren't really nice to you ether especially when you are a minority who does't speak impeccable English.

"You can be arrested, sure, and then you sue the police for false arrest. "
Yeah, and the Onsens that refused to service him got sued and ended up paying him right? I'm just contrasting his situation with the ones the immigrants in the states have. It just seems like he WANTS to be arrested or something.

And, it is required for the immigrants to carry their permanent residence cards at all times in the states too.


P.S.
Oh yeah, it's naturalize, not neutralize, I always confuse them. If you are neutralized, there is no reason for him to be denied naturalizing right?*excuse excuse*

[Tsuwabuki]

I use Japanese bath rules in my own home; I actually like those rules better, and I have never a) been refused entry into an onsen 3) never been told I have made any mistakes 3) lived in Korea where the public bath culture is similar 4) read a lot on the culture before arriving.

Really folks, this isn't rocket science.

When I do make mistakes, and I still do, it's usually with shoes. But I just apologise and remember not to do that particular thing again, even if I don't know why it's a "rule." Protip: sometimes the Japanese themselves don't know either!

I have never, ever, NOT ONCE seen or heard of a Japanese person being asked to produce ID for no other reason than because they might not be Japanese, especially if as a citizen, and they do not drive, and do not travel, they have no ID. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think we agree on the definition of "all the time." You are certainly free to comply if you want to give the police officer your ID, but what we're debating here is a legal right to refuse.

And, in America, no, the cops cannot nag you for hours if you refuse to show your ID. I could quote the case law, but what it comes down to is that the due process required by the 14th Amendment means that anything you say while being "nagged" is inadmissible in court if you've expressed your desire to leave, and the police refuse to let you but have not arrested you. It is illegal to detain a person without arresting them, and after arresting them, it is illegal to interrogate them without reading them their Miranda rights. Merely a "feeling of coercion and the feeling of loss of freedom" is enough to constitute being "detained." Which means if you try to get to your car to leave, and the cop steps in front of your car door and won't let you get in, you've just been illegally detained. In that case, after your name, the only thing you should say is "lawyer" and you keep repeating it until they arrest you, let you go, or your lawyer shows up.

Debito isn't a just legal resident of Japan, permanent or otherwise. He's a CITIZEN. This isn't about what rights you have as a non-citizen, non-national of a country. This entire discourse is about treating citizens differently under the law, which is wrong.

[Ronin4hire]

I thought Arizona was introducing Japanese type laws?

Debito isn't a just legal resident of Japan, permanent or otherwise. He's a CITIZEN. This isn't about what rights you have as a non-citizen, non-national of a country. This entire discourse is about treating citizens differently under the law, which is wrong.

Well I disagree here. I think nobody should face discrimination regardless of their legal status (unless legal status is relevant of course) and I think THAT is what Debito campaigns for. The thing about him being a Japanese citizen is just a part of his bigger argument.

Anyway... regarding Debitos tactics.. Im not sure what people are talking about. All Ive heard from the guy are a few of his articles that I come across on here and in class (yes weve used a couple of his essays in class here at the Japanese university Im in.. I guess my professors are on the "crazy train" ) regarding a couple of specific issues. He is no MLK junior but I cant really find fault with what he says unless some of what he says is a blatant lie or exaggeration.