Hostile Hostels Article in Japan Times

[Tsuwabuki]

Oh, I'm around. It's just my kanji skills suck, which means I have to be in a really 勉強して mood in order to deal with it.

Questions I don't feel you addressed:

Is 職務質問 conducted for the sole purpose of determining someone's immigration status? If it is, that's wrong. Perhaps legal in Japan, but still wrong.

Is 職務質問 conducted on Japanese citizens regularly for the sole purpose of determining someone's immigration status? If not, then a clear pattern of racism or at least of xenophobia appears, and that's wrong. If yes, then that is seriously interfering in the rights of citizens to be free of harassment from a government which is supposed to proceed from then, which is also wrong.

You say the same style of due process applies to 職務質問, but what happens if you actually do simply refuse to show ID and walk away?

If you do show ID and refuse to answer questions, but cannot be blocked by due process, how can the police ask you questions "for hours?" What are they going to do, follow you to the grocery store, the laundromat, your place of work, outside your apartment, on your dates with your girlfriend...? Never arresting, never blocking, but simply following you asking you questions while you ignore them and go about your business?

You say Debito was not arrested, but the question becomes, would he have been eventually?

In the States material witnesses can be arrested for obstructing a criminal investigation, which is a crime, and as long as due process, arrest, and Miranda are followed, interrogation can occur, but you still can't interrogate someone without following due process.

A Japanese police officer merely shadowing a citizen because the officer doesn't have the right to do anything beyond shout questions at you while you ignore him/her is utterly hilarious. And a waste of resources.

Also, Debito didn't "make" me think anything. I am responsible for my own views.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Is 職務質問 conducted for the sole purpose of determining someone's immigration status?

No. They don't have any predefined target for 職務質問. Most often it is done to catch thieves and pushers, but it really can be any reason, and they might not even have a clear target.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

that is seriously interfering in the rights of citizens to be free of harassment from a government which is supposed to proceed from then, which is also wrong.

I don't think it is "seriously" interfering the citizen's rights in most cases, as there is a Japanese style fine line, and showing ID can be easily mandated by law like many countries do, but I agree, I think it is interfering the citizen's rights, serious or not. That's why I said I hate the 職務質問 law. At the same time, they are arresting 12,000 criminals a year with 職務質問 and it has some degree of support from Japanese citizens.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

what happens if you actually do simply refuse to show ID and walk away?

It depends on how you walk away. You can't look suspicious. You can't push the cops. but if you reason with them calmly, you can probably get away with it. Debito sounded pretty aggressive but he still got a way. Even if you purposely agitate them and cuss them like this guy,

YouTube - 東京足立区千住警察署警察官の職質強要

You can still get away if you do it right.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

how can the police ask you questions "for hours?" What are they going to do, follow you to the grocery store, the laundromat, your place of work, outside your apartment, on your dates with your girlfriend...?

The PC answer is yes, exactly what you said, they can only follow you. In the real life with the real cops though, they will most likely call a bunch of guys like the video above, and "lightly" block your way. It's like the defense in a basket ball game. So if you know how to play the game, you might only waste 15 min or so. But if you don't, they can be really persistent. "hours" may be an exaggeration, but I know a case which lasted for an hour and a half.

Really, 職務質問 is a subject of big debate in Japan. Even a former top of the law enforcement of all Japan, a cabinet member, got a pretty forcible 職務質問 and made a big stickler about it. I know 漢字 is hard for you but if you care, try reading his site and it will pretty much sum up the whole situation.

http://www.liberal-shirakawa.net/idea/policestate.html

It's OK you think how Japan's cops do their job is hilarious, and may be it is. But I see a lot of not so hilarious things in the US law system like a girl getting punched in the face by a cop, innocent black guys killed with dozens of bullets, and the Arizona's immigration law. I'm not saying which system is better or anything, it's just different countries have different social systems and different problems, and judging them with only the information from one side is generally a bad idea.

Now, whether or not Debito "made" you think this way, you took his video as 外国人差別 and I think he presented it in the way most English speakers would think it was. While I don't expect you to know all these niceties about Japanese social system, I definitely expect it from a Japanese professor.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by cranks

No. They don't have any predefined target for 職務質問. Most often it is done to catch thieves and pushers, but it really can be any reason, and they might not even have a clear target.

The lack of presumption of innocence is the issue here. Lack of probable cause is bad juju, legal or not. Police should not be allowed a fishing expedition to search for what crimes a random passerby may have possibly committed.

I don't think it is "seriously" interfering the citizen's rights in most cases, as there is a Japanese style fine line, and showing ID can be easily mandated by law like many countries do, but I agree, I think it is interfering the citizen's rights, serious or not. That's why I said I hate the 職務質問 law. At the same time, they are arresting 12,000 criminals a year with 職務質問 and it has some degree of support from Japanese citizens.

Mandating that citizens carry proof of citizenship they must furnish upon request any time while walking around in public areas of the country they are a citizen of is an unreasonable burden on the citizenry, not to mention completely absurd.

As for the fact that some Japanese have a "well, I don't commit crimes, so I don't mind the privacy violation, because I have nothing to hide, and it stops real criminals" attitude, in this case I believe a quote from Benjamin Franklin is the best response I could have: Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Just because something is legal somewhere doesn't make it right. Crime isn't going anywhere, so any safety purchased by such an unreasonable burden on the citizenry is temporary at best.

It depends on how you walk away. You can't look suspicious. You can't push the cops. but if you reason with them calmly, you can probably get away with it. Debito sounded pretty aggressive but he still got a way. Even if you purposely agitate them and cuss them like this guy,

YouTube - 東京足立区千住警察署警察官の職質強要

You can still get away if you do it right.

How do I trust that my definition of "suspicious behavior" is not stricter than the police? How do I know my "foreign ways" won't be misread as "suspicious or threatening," or at least written down on the Japanese police report that way as the trumped up reason I was improperly detained and interrogated?

The PC answer is yes, exactly what you said, they can only follow you. In the real life with the real cops though, they will most likely call a bunch of guys like the video above, and "lightly" block your way. It's like the defense in a basket ball game. So if you know how to play the game, you might only waste 15 min or so. But if you don't, they can be really persistent. "hours" may be an exaggeration, but I know a case which lasted for an hour and a half.

I would consider that being detained and a violation of due process. I am clearly not free to leave in a situation where I am surrounded by police officers. If I was Japanese, I would repeat lawyer until one was provided for me. If I wasn't (and I am not), and I had already shown my ID and refused to answer further questions, I would repeat US consulate until a consular official was brought to me or I was let go. Assuming they hadn't confiscated my phone, I would probably call the consulate's emergency number.

Really, 職務質問 is a subject of big debate in Japan. Even a former top of the law enforcement of all Japan, a cabinet member, got a pretty forcible 職務質問 and made a big stickler about it. I know 漢字 is hard for you but if you care, try reading his site and it will pretty much sum up the whole situation.

http://www.liberal-shirakawa.net/idea/policestate.html

I'll try my best.

It's OK you think how Japan's cops do their job is hilarious, and may be it is. But I see a lot of not so hilarious things in the US law system like a girl getting punched in the face by a cop, innocent black guys killed with dozens of bullets, and the Arizona's immigration law. I'm not saying which system is better or anything, it's just different countries have different social systems and different problems, and judging them with only the information from one side is generally a bad idea.

I didn't mean hilarious as in I am actually laughing ha ha. I mean patently absurd. Which it is.

You mistake the failings of individuals for failings in the system. The system is self-correcting. Dirty cops are not the fault of the legal system's concepts. Police punching anyone in custody or otherwise? Illegal. The police officer that shot the unarmed African-American man in the back? He was convicted of negligent homicide and sentenced to something like 15 years behind bars. Arizona's immigration law? The Feds are suing, because the White House says it's unconstitutional (and I agree). Just because sometimes the people in the system break doesn't mean the system itself is broken. If this wasn't the case, we wouldn't need such protections written into legal codes in the first place. People would just know how to apply justice fairly from the get go.

In the cases you mention it is the very concepts in the legal system that will correct for abuses by turning those who abuse their positions into convicted criminals themselves.

Now, whether or not Debito "made" you think this way, you took his video as 外国人差別 and I think he presented it in the way most English speakers would think it was. While I don't expect you to know all these niceties about Japanese social system, I definitely expect it from a Japanese professor.

That was a bit condescending. I didn't need Debito's video to think that the Japanese process for checking IDs has 外国人差別 elements to it. I thought that already, and I still do, because you've offered me nothing to worry LESS about Japanese police, just examples of why I should worry MORE.

As for the parting shot, I'm well acquainted with many processes that make up the "niceties of the Japanese social system," and I can tell that some claims of "muri desu" are xenophobically motivated, and not because the action really is impossible. My experiences in obtaining my driver's license, as a good example. There were clear elements of xenophobia, maybe even racism, I experienced with one particular officer. Luckily, he was just one person I had to deal with, and he was not there the following day.

Debito's video is really just audio overlaid onto a still image. We miss so much context and connotation. We have no idea what might be visual cues that would let us know that the police officer in question was, in fact, being a bully, as opposed to just doing his job. Since you are well acquainted with the niceties yourself, you know that in the right situation, said in the right way, even 敬語 can come out dripping in condescension and sarcasm. There is more to language, even in a supposedly "monotone" language like Japanese, than can be expressed solely in 単語 or 品詞.

[cranks]

Tsuwabuki,
I agree with you. I don't like how J police do their job when 職務質問 is concerned. I also don't like how the American cops do their job sometimes, they can be quite racist and brutal from time to time. By the way, nobody was convicted in the NY's case where they shot an innocent black guy to death, but this was/is not the debate here. Like you said, it's about whether or not 職務質問 system is 外国人差別. When I brought up the Debito's video, your responses were,

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

the police officer feels like he wants to be a douchebag today and decide to determine the legal status of every non ethnic Japanese person that walks by.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I have never, ever, NOT ONCE seen or heard of a Japanese person being asked to produce ID for no other reason than because they might not be Japanese,

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Is 職務質問 conducted for the sole purpose of determining someone's immigration status? If it is, that's wrong.

And I already responded to all of your points and made clear that 外国人 is not the target most of the time. Again, even an ethnically Japanese cabinet member who was in charge of the Japanese law enforcement got it. Yes, It is a matter of citizen's rights. ALL citizen's rights that is. And I'm just saying making this a matter of 外国人差別 isn't the right way to fight it, even though I agree with the intension.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I didn't need Debito's video to think that the Japanese process for checking IDs has 外国人差別 elements to it. I thought that already, and I still do, because you've offered me nothing to worry LESS about Japanese police, just examples of why I should worry MORE.

Wait. You think 職務質問 is 外国人差別, and the reason why you think so is not the Debito's video, not your personal experience, not the statics, but because I have offered you "nothing to worry LESS about Japanese police, just examples of why I should worry MORE"? Everything I've offered clearly shows that ALL citizens can be/are subject to 職務質問, and it is a controversy for ALL citizens. OK. I failed to alleviate your fear towards J cops. And because you are afraid of J cops, 職務質問 must be 外国人差別. Is it me or there is a case of prejudice here?

I apologize if I sounded condescending. You may know how Japanese society works pretty well. I just didn't/don't know. My intension was that even if you didn't, and if it resulted in what seemed to be a slanted opinion from my standpoint, I would try not to take it as an offense to the Japanese society or an expression of superiority. Debito is different though. He's been living in Japan for over 20 years, is a Japanese citizen, and is a professor at a Japanese university. When HE presents overly one-sided view, it seems malicious. Seriously, he has a homemade cartoon on his site called "Little Yellow Jap". That's actually not even a question of slanted or one-sided. Sure, he's saying this is sarcasm and all that, but hello? Under WHAT circumstance is that not racist? Under WHAT circumstance is that blatant offense to all ethnically Japanese people in the world allowed? I'm not mad or anything and I still probably agree with a lot of what he wants to do, but just as a matter of fact, he's coming across as a racist himself all right, and I just don't see the merit of doing things like that. He's doing a lot more harm than good, imho.