Individualism versus gregariousness

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Columbine

That's what I meant when I said that by-stander intervention is lower particularly when no one is in immediate danger. The Hanshin Earthquake was exceptional. I've fallen off a bike, my friend got hit by a car and people were immediately there to help; I'm talking more about scenarios where it would be ~nice~ to help, but not essential. Old lady can't reach the top supermarket shelf etc.

A one-sided transaction is where party A does something for party B without any perception on either side that party B should then therefore do something for party A. The best way I can describe it is if for example, my friends and I are going to the theatre. Tickets bought Dutch. I live half-way between my friends' house and the theatre so I say to them that for practical reasons (it's a long drive maybe) they can stop at my house and I'll make a casual dinner before we go to the theatre. That dinner is a one-sided transaction. It's not a gift, its an effort made on my part that is completely neutral, to make things more convenient for everyone. That, I know from experience, would not work as easily in Japan. Because the person who was offered the dinner would perceive it as that a) this sort of dinner-giving is normally a mutual exchange over time but b) I was refusing to let them make it mutual so C) I was putting them down/myself up.

British people would be utterly unfazed about this. We might SAY 'oh i'll cook you dinner next time' to be polite, but there's no expectation it'll ever happen and zero backlash if it doesn't. There's also little to no substantial gain if it does. I'm not saying this never happens in Japan, or that this is true across all scenarios, i just think it happens much less often, and much less overtly than in the west.

You sound a little judgmental about the Japanese sense of debt and I don't think it is anything we can judge. I hope I am not going too off topic here, but I have a couple of points to make.

One of the positive things I have adopted for myself is finding balance and showing gratitude when people do nice things for me. A "one way" transaction should be (to me) a "two way" transaction. For example, I learned early on that if an older individual pays for my food or drinks, it is important to show my genuine thanks at that time AND immediately the next time I see them. You would be surprised how many Americans are taken aback when reminded they did something nice for someone, and it is still appreciated.

I guess this isn't off topic because it is part of the social harmony of Japan to feel indebted when someone does something nice for you. If you were to make dinner for me before we went to a show I WOULD feel like I should return the favor to you somehow. Chances are I would ask you "What can I bring?" in advance or bring drinks to show my thanks.

I think this is good for society, as if we are all takers we need a lot of givers. It is more balanced if everyone is takers and givers.

[Nyororin]

I think that the example of dinner is a difficult one, but I do see what is being said. Particularly so as a friend from the UK is in the habit of asking me to stay for dinner. I know she makes a lot and isn`t doing anything special by asking me to stay... And I know I`m probably actually doing her a favor by reducing the leftovers... And I know that she`s happy to have me there and is not expecting anything in return...

But the me that has lived in Japan for the past 10+ years screams in terror every time because it just raises the level of "debt" I have to her for the food. So I do indeed feel that I need to go out of the way the "repay" this. Not just by being thankful and expressing gratitude - but by actual monetary value. The food she uses is costing money, and gratitude does not replace that. It sounds petty to talk in terms of value, but that`s what it comes down to. In my mind I have to weigh out whether what I have done for her balances the scale.

I would also use the example of, say, carrying a bunch of bags or boxes. If somoene were to help me carry some of them a short distance, it would be a (heartfelt and honest) thank you and done with sort of thing in the US.
In Japan, on the other hand, I would feel kind of obligated to ask the person in for a cup of tea or something. I couldn`t comfortably just say thank you and it be done with.

I mean, think about having a repair person come to your house in Japan. This is probably the best example.
Even though it`s their job, and even if they`re only in your house for 15 minutes hooking something up - it`s still unthinkable to not offer them a cup of tea and thank them profusely. Regardless of whether they`re being paid to do the work, you`re still having them come all the way to your house to do it - they are being inconvenienced in some way by you. You should be apologetic for this, just as they are should be apologetic for the fact that they have to intrude into your house to do something - inconveniencing you.

[konbini]

Last year I was having dinner with some other tourists in a small town restaurant. Before ordering we told the waitress that we want to split the bill. While eating dinner a group of locals told me that something dropped from my pocket. After I got talking to them. When I went to pay the bill, they would not split it for us. I asked half jokingly for the locals to help. But no one stepped in. In the end we sorted the bill out between ourselves. I am not surprised about the lack of intervention. The locals did not mean offence. Things are just different in Japan and there is a difference between kindness and intervention.

[Japania]

After having read all these posts I find this issue even more difficult to understand.
Let me get this straight: Japanese are polite, respectful but they don't intervene even when they could help other people... why?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Japania

After having read all these posts I find this issue even more difficult to understand.
Let me get this straight: Japanese are polite, respectful but they don't intervene even when they could help other people... why?

I would say people in Tokyo do not intervene even when they could help other people. I saw the same thing in New York City and Washington DC. I would not say this is necessarily true outside of Tokyo.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MMM

You sound a little judgmental about the Japanese sense of debt and I don't think it is anything we can judge. I hope I am not going too off topic here, but I have a couple of points to make.

One of the positive things I have adopted for myself is finding balance and showing gratitude when people do nice things for me. A "one way" transaction should be (to me) a "two way" transaction. For example, I learned early on that if an older individual pays for my food or drinks, it is important to show my genuine thanks at that time AND immediately the next time I see them. You would be surprised how many Americans are taken aback when reminded they did something nice for someone, and it is still appreciated.

I guess this isn't off topic because it is part of the social harmony of Japan to feel indebted when someone does something nice for you. If you were to make dinner for me before we went to a show I WOULD feel like I should return the favor to you somehow. Chances are I would ask you "What can I bring?" in advance or bring drinks to show my thanks.

I think this is good for society, as if we are all takers we need a lot of givers. It is more balanced if everyone is takers and givers.

I just came off an 12-hour shift so if I'm taking this the wrong way please forgive me, but judgmental HOW? Because I find that a little offensive, frankly. I don't think I claimed it was either a positive or negative thing, just a thing that IS. Fair enough, maybe I have an observationally narrow view of it, but I am categorically in no way saying either the 'japanese' way of it is better or worse than any other way of things. Neither did I call it a sense of debt; it's simply that they perceive some situations as two-way when westerners might see it as a one-sided thing. Actually, right back at you, isn't your view of westerners as being 'rude' about 'not giving' rather unfairly judgmental as well?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I just came off an 12-hour shift so if I'm taking this the wrong way please forgive me, but judgmental HOW? Because I find that a little offensive, frankly. I don't think I claimed it was either a positive or negative thing, just a thing that IS. Fair enough, maybe I have an observationally narrow view of it, but I am categorically in no way saying either the 'japanese' way of it is better or worse than any other way of things. Neither did I call it a sense of debt; it's simply that they perceive some situations as two-way when westerners might see it as a one-sided thing. Actually, right back at you, isn't your view of westerners as being 'rude' about 'not giving' rather unfairly judgmental as well?

That's the way it read to me, but it sounds like I was mistaken.

You many have not said "sense of debt" but that is exactly what it is.

Back at you, I didn't say it was "rude" to not feel a sense of responsibility when someone gives something to you. I do think it makes for a healthier society, though.

[dogsbody70]

But the me that has lived in Japan for the past 10+ years screams in terror every time because it just raises the level of "debt" I have to her for the food. So I do indeed feel that I need to go out of the way the "repay" this. Not just by being thankful and expressing gratitude - but by actual monetary value. The food she uses is costing money, and gratitude does not replace that. It sounds petty to talk in terms of value, but that`s what it comes down to. In my mind I have to weigh out whether what I have done for her balances the scale. (NYORORIN)


I have read about this issue of indebtedness. That even an unborn child will be born with indebtedness to al lwho have gone before. Somewhere it was called "ON" I believe by Ruth Benedict.

When I do something for someone I do not expect anything back from them though always appreciate a thankyou.

We /ME at Christmas always feel that we have to send christmas cards to those who have sent Us a card.

I do quite alot for my japanese friend, she used to bombard me with unwanted gifts-- I well understand that was/is her way of saying thankyou.


I have managed to slow down the number of gifts--because to me--helping people should be part of what we human beings do naturally. I understand her feelings of course because it can be embarassing to receive help-- but she is a stranger here so I feel it is the least I can do to help her. I am fond of her so like to do things for her.

She talks frequently of DUTY . how important it is.

It is nice to reciprocate but not always possible.

Usually if one is invited to a house for a meal it is polite to return the compliment at a later date.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

I have read about this issue of indebtedness. That even an unborn child will be born with indebtedness to al lwho have gone before. Somewhere it was called "ON" I believe by Ruth Benedict.
.

Again, exhausted, so not going into a long post here, but take Ruth Benedict with a large pinch of salt. At the time what she wrote was invaluable, but it's very outdated now and at the time of writing Chrysthanthemum and the Sword, her most famous work on japanese culture, she had never been to Japan. It's worth reading for historical value, but most anthropologists today accept that it has little bearing on modern Japan.

[dogsbody70]

HI Columbine thanks I realise that was written a lobg time ago and of course many changes. Several of my other books talk about "ON". not only her book.

whether young Japanese feel that way also I have no idea at all

I realy would like to hear from some japanese young people. Have their views.

Times change in all countries I should think-- whether old and ancient traditions are clung to or forgotten I don't know. after all its not that long since here in UK a girl having a child out of wedlock was considered terrible and so many of those poor mothers had their babies removed and taken for adoption.

It would have been unheard of for young couples to live together if they weren't married-- Now the majority Have partners and often children without any comment at all. Just one example. No doubt much has changed in Japan especially I suspect since the American Occupation.


I quoted from Nyororin's message re indebtedness-- and that seemed still to be a problem.