Should Japan distance herself from the U.S.?

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by MMM

If there was no benefit to exporting, no one would do it. Imports benefit both parties. If exporters accept high tariffs, they accept high tariffs. They always have the option to choose not to sell.

So during the late 70 and early 80, when Japanese imports were out selling American cars and almost bankrupting these American car companies, that was good and beneficial to both parties?

All that 'buy American' and 'Japan bashing' happened because stupid Americans just didn't understand that buying Japanese cars was beneficial to their economy? Face it, too much Japanese cars hurt the U.S. car industry and economy while making japan richer. This is exactly what's happening with expensive fashion imported into Japan from Europe.

Imports can benefit the consumer and some side companies, but it hurts domestic companies and takes the money out of circulation. Total trade between two or more countries can be beneficial if they carefully make agreements. yes. But, on any one item, imports usually hurt the domestic economy unless there are special circumstances like, the lack of something in one country while the abundance of said thing in another. Handbags are made in Japan - they don't qualify as special situation.

[steven]

I didn't realize Japan was so well known for expensive fashion goods like handbags... America was known for its cars, after all. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the handbags that aren't sold for their name brand were made in China. I'll check it out the next time I'm out.

chiuchimu, it's funny you bring that up about that era. I think that was a worrying time for America. Styx wrote a song about it for crying out loud. Also, I have a T-shirt from that era that says "Buy American... while you still can" (it has a Japanese flag like overtaking an American flag) which I really enjoy for its comical purposes today. In all seriousness, however, I think America brought a lot of that upon themselves. There were many quality issues with American cars and I believe the competition was a good thing. I don't think that Japanese cars are known for being very expensive either. This is getting away from the time period you were talking about, but looking at today, I think Japanese car companies have actually helped America. As far as I known, most Japanese cars sold in America are made in America. I've known plenty of Americans who work or have worked for Japanese car companies in America. Although I'm sure they exist, I haven't met anyone who works for an American car company. From what I hear, most American cars are made in Mexico (maybe just assembled?). I don't know much about the top guys of Japanese car companies, but it seems like the GM guys are always having a great time, which is good for them, but when the rest of the economy is in a slump and their company was going down the toilet you kind of wonder how much of that "buy American" business is a heaping load of horse apples.

I'm dragging on, but it seems to me that there are plenty of taxes put on imported handbags... they are, in my opinion too, outrageously expensive. However, it's the Japanese public who is choosing to buy them. People aren't forced into buying these things. Maybe part of the problem is Japan's willingness to shell out their money for those things... and where does that problem stem? In otherwords, this is like Americans who complain to or sue fast food companies because they are fat.

Cranks, thanks for all that info! And believe me I'm fully aware of all the taxes and cost of cars... I feel like I'm paying a few 万 every month to the city hall for some thing or another that has to do with my car. The toll roads are a bit expensive... the 1000円 thing on the weekends they have going is great though. I heard they were going to get rid of tolls eventually, but I'm not so certain about that one. I have to give one huge compliment to Japan though-- the roads here are beautiful compared to where I came from in the US. Even with all the crazy weather here, they still stay in great shape. Another thing is that used cars here seem to be quite affordable and in great shape compared with the US. I remember driving on the freeway in California and seeing peoples' tires ready to fall off (literally not kidding... unfortunately). It makes me feel a lot safer here (although I do see a lotta small kids w/o baby seats).

I'm curious about the NK and communist thing with school teachers... I have met a few people who are very sympathetic with NK, which was surprising to me. It's always interesting to talk to all kinds of people for me. I like listening to different perspectives on that type of thing.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by fluffy0000

Cuban missile crisis happened in Oct. 1962' - Stalin died in 1953' ?
Cuba was ruled by a dictator Batista some called him a President, but history calls him a dictator, and military leader closely aligned with and supported by the United States.
Batista's corrupt and repressive regime systematically profited from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, in partnership with U.S. corporations and the American Mafia. As a result, for three years Fidel Castro's July 26th Movement and other rebelling elements led a guerrilla uprising against Batista's regime which culminated in his eventual defeat

Stalin was still a recent memory in 1962, and people still remember the 30-odd million who died during his rule.

Exactly how pleasant has Cuba's lifestyle been since the revolution? Cuba merely traded an American puppet leader and American exploitation for a Soviet-supported puppet leader, and Soviet exploitation. Given that the average "capitalist exploited" part-time McDonald's worker in America earns more money in a week than your typical Cuban full-time worker earns in months, it's hard to see what benefit the Cuban people have felt from the revolution.

Japan's first government after the war was an American-supported puppet government, and one could argue that Japan was exploited by America as well. An American reviewed and approved the present Japanese constitution, and an American created the basic agricultural and industrial systems which exist until this day.

Has Japan suffered from American interference and exploitation? I don't think so.

And yes, I have been to Cuba myself.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

So during the late 70 and early 80, when Japanese imports were out selling American cars and almost bankrupting these American car companies, that was good and beneficial to both parties?

All that 'buy American' and 'Japan bashing' happened because stupid Americans just didn't understand that buying Japanese cars was beneficial to their economy? Face it, too much Japanese cars hurt the U.S. car industry and economy while making japan richer. This is exactly what's happening with expensive fashion imported into Japan from Europe.

Imports can benefit the consumer and some side companies, but it hurts domestic companies and takes the money out of circulation. Total trade between two or more countries can be beneficial if they carefully make agreements. yes. But, on any one item, imports usually hurt the domestic economy unless there are special circumstances like, the lack of something in one country while the abundance of said thing in another. Handbags are made in Japan - they don't qualify as special situation.

This happens the world over and 1st world countries like Japan and the US are finding it near impossible to compete with international manufacturers (depending on the industry) because much of the world's manufacturing now occurs in developing countries where wages are compartively very low. Basic manufacturing in all developed nations has been decimated by this. Many companies have had to close shop in their own country and set up factories in developing nations to stay competitive. The US car manufacturing industry has only survived beacuse of massive government financial bailouts from time to time.

Japan actually does more than many countries in the form of tarriffs and subsidies to attempt to protect local industries but this has consequences for Japanese exporters as well. In the world of international trade there is tit for tat. You attempt to restrict imports through tarriffs from a certain country then that country will restrict your ability to export into theirs. You really can't set it up so that only Japan benefits.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

So during the late 70 and early 80, when Japanese imports were out selling American cars and almost bankrupting these American car companies, that was good and beneficial to both parties?

It was good for Japan and good for American consumers who wanted to buy cheaper cars with better gas mileage at a time when gasoline prices skyrocketed. Old fashioned and out of date businesses and industries need a kick in the pants every once in a while. No American car companies went out of business, that I am aware of at this time. They were forced to change their business models and relook at what the American market was looking for (smaller cars with better gas mileage).

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

All that 'buy American' and 'Japan bashing' happened because stupid Americans just didn't understand that buying Japanese cars was beneficial to their economy? Face it, too much Japanese cars hurt the U.S. car industry and economy while making japan richer. This is exactly what's happening with expensive fashion imported into Japan from Europe.

Welcome to the world of spin doctoring. As American companies were rethinking their business plans there had to be a way to make Americans "buy American" even if it was a more expensive and inferior product -- introduce "Buy American" as a catch phrase to make patriotism a part of a car purchase. Even today there are parts or the US where it is hard to find a "foreign" car, even though many "Japanese" cars are built in America and many American cars are built with Mexican parts.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Imports can benefit the consumer and some side companies, but it hurts domestic companies and takes the money out of circulation. Total trade between two or more countries can be beneficial if they carefully make agreements. yes. But, on any one item, imports usually hurt the domestic economy unless there are special circumstances like, the lack of something in one country while the abundance of said thing in another. Handbags are made in Japan - they don't qualify as special situation.

Fair competition is good for the consumer. If outdated companies suffer, they need to update and catch up, or go under. That's capitalism. No private business is owed consumers or profit if it is selling inferior products.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Stalin was still a recent memory in 1962, and people still remember the 30-odd million who died during his rule.

Exactly how pleasant has Cuba's lifestyle been since the revolution? Cuba merely traded an American puppet leader and American exploitation for a Soviet-supported puppet leader, and Soviet exploitation. Given that the average "capitalist exploited" part-time McDonald's worker in America earns more money in a week than your typical Cuban full-time worker earns in months, it's hard to see what benefit the Cuban people have felt from the revolution.

Japan's first government after the war was an American-supported puppet government, and one could argue that Japan was exploited by America as well. An American reviewed and approved the present Japanese constitution, and an American created the basic agricultural and industrial systems which exist until this day.

Has Japan suffered from American interference and exploitation? I don't think so.

And yes, I have been to Cuba myself.

lol... Cuba has better healthcare and a lower crime rate than the US if I remember correctly.

The average McDonalds worker might earn more in the US... but he/she has to pay for a whole lot more too.

Im not saying that Cuba is perfect... but if we compare it to say.. Mexico who to this day is exploited by the US. I think Cuba is in much better shape.

[chiuchimu]

It was good for Japan and good for American consumers who wanted to buy cheaper cars with better gas mileage at a time when gasoline prices skyrocketed. Old fashioned and out of date businesses and industries need a kick in the pants every once in a while. No American car companies went out of business, that I am aware of at this time. They were forced to change their business models and relook at what the American market was looking for (smaller cars with better gas mileage). .

Yes, consumer benefited. The discussion was about the economy which didn't.
U.S. car companies survived by closing shop and going to Mexico. Jobs were lost. Suppliers lost big contracts. Japan got rich.

Welcome to the world of spin doctoring. As American companies were rethinking their business plans there had to be a way to make Americans "buy American" even if it was a more expensive and inferior product -- introduce "Buy American" as a catch phrase to make patriotism a part of a car purchase. Even today there are parts or the US where it is hard to find a "foreign" car, even though many "Japanese" cars are built in America and many American cars are built with Mexican parts.
.

I agree about the spin to an extent. But plants in America did close down and operations moved to Mexico. Japanese cars were not made in America at that time( Honda started in mid 80 I think).

Fair competition is good for the consumer. If outdated companies suffer, they need to update and catch up, or go under. That's capitalism. No private business is owed consumers or profit if it is selling inferior products.

Competition IS good for the consumer and if trade agreements are well planned, even good for both economies. But any single import item takes money out of circulation and sends it to a different country. If the trade is totally unbalanced then it hurts the economy. For varies reasons, the simple Idea that Capitalism is good across international borders is false. That's like saying, "If American car companies went bankrupt because they were inferior to Japanese cars then they deserve to go bankrupt." In some countries, companies get help from the Government. The U.S. funds a lot of R&D by way of military contracts. Some countries don't have strict codes to follow etc... The playing field is not always fair - why force the rules of a fair game? A country and an individual is different.

[fluffy0000]

Cuba
I've been to Haiti, Honduras, Panama, Columbia - etc, and Cuba is way better off than any of it's neighbors especially it's healthcare. Your 'e arguement about foreign or domestic puppet governments is a non starter.
FYI the evil empire ( USSR ) collapsed in 1989' and support especially oil etc was shut off.
Cuba is not a puppet except in your imagination.

regarding US auto industry-
dude, you have got it wrong again about what happened to US auto industry and the US manufactoring base during the 70's and 80's especially in the wake of the first wave of oil crisis.
The reason the US auto makers and the whole US northeastern industrial base collapsed has nothing to do with superior imports, especially autos?

The US auto industry and northeastern industrial belt represented a highly paid , union organized base of workers. Note UAW United Auto Workers, AFL-CIO etc, unions through it's membership and pension fund ( money ) translated into political clout.

During the 70's and 80's the US through a economical model of rolling back wages and destroying organized labor - the US deliberately decided to force domestic wages down and roll back organized labor by relocating the US industrial base overseas where cheaper labor and regulation would let them operate unrestrained.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Yes, consumer benefited. The discussion was about the economy which didn't.
U.S. car companies survived by closing shop and going to Mexico. Jobs were lost. Suppliers lost big contracts. Japan got rich.

I agree about the spin to an extent. But plants in America did close down and operations moved to Mexico. Japanese cars were not made in America at that time( Honda started in mid 80 I think).

I think you are mixing up periods. What hurt the economy was the sky-rocketing gas prices, not cheap Japanese cars.

The move to Mexico was after NAFTA, which is the largest mistake of the Clinton-era, which essentially opened the borders between Mexico and Canada with the US, and made it possible for American corporation to shut down "expensive" factories in the US and open them in Mexico paying workers at cheaper wages. Then India and China said "We are even cheaper," but that is a story for another day...

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Competition IS good for the consumer and if trade agreements are well planned, even good for both economies. But any single import item takes money out of circulation and sends it to a different country. If the trade is totally unbalanced then it hurts the economy. For varies reasons, the simple Idea that Capitalism is good across international borders is false. That's like saying, "If American car companies went bankrupt because they were inferior to Japanese cars then they deserve to go bankrupt." In some countries, companies get help from the Government. The U.S. funds a lot of R&D by way of military contracts. Some countries don't have strict codes to follow etc... The playing field is not always fair - why force the rules of a fair game? A country and an individual is different.

If money moves both ways, then it is good for both economies. Japan has been at the advantage with the trade imbalance with the US for decades, but now China is king of trade imbalances, taking advantage of 10s of billions of dollars from the US every year.

That's like saying, "If American car companies went bankrupt because they were inferior to Japanese cars then they deserve to go bankrupt."

How is that a false statement?

[Ryzorian]

Castro orginally went to the US for help but was rebuffed, so went to the Russians. Castro himself recently has sated that the communist system doesn't work.

Japan will ally themselves with whoever they believe offers them their best interests.