Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[Mazikeen]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I've seen Ronin4Hire agree and I've seen him disagree in posts. He's not arguing for the sake of arguing, His opinions tend to the unpopular. Still, he has the right to his opinion. And, having a minority opinion doesn't make one wrong. We are here to discuss things.

No, see, this is where you're wrong. He's entitled to his opinion, until it disrupts the discussion. His idea of strengthening his stance is to point out every little mistake the US ever committed. Which is no way to have a little chit-chat about the US forces in Japan and the idea to remove them. Self-righteous indignation is his game, and it's not one that anyone wants to place.

"What do you mean Japan isn't trustworthy yet? But, the USA has persecuted it's own citizens from time to time, therefore, Japan should have a military.

-Ronin4Hire"

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

No, see, this is where you're wrong. He's entitled to his opinion, until it disrupts the discussion. His idea of strengthening his stance is to point out every little mistake the US ever committed. Which is no way to have a little chit-chat about the US forces in Japan and the idea to remove them.

Everyones guilty of that. I'm the OP of this thread. My post was about "if Japan buys the bases from U.S. "
That's already assuming many things. Like the constitution is amended, the people voted in that direction, to buy from the U.S. implies that the U.S. has reach an agreement too.


Next, I posted my opinions on the benefits.
1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations, I think it will help US-China relations as well since China won't have U.S. forces close by, except in DMZ.

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

4) Japan can purchase military hardware from anyone not just the U.S. Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

5) With self defense of the table, Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level. After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies. And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda. When we agree, we can work with each other, but it will be truly voluntary. No more side-ing with the U.S. simply because we need military protection or we need the market shares. In The end, I think it will make US-Japan better allies since it will be a partnership forged of freewill rather than reliance.

Very few have argued on any of the above five points. Instead, most are focusing in on the following arguments:
1) Japanese people don't want it
2) WW2, Japan can't be trusted with a military
3) constitution forbids having a military.
4) Japanese military won't be strong enough to fight of China anyway.

I would prefer it also if people stuck to my original 5 debate points.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Next, I posted my opinions on the benefits.
1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations, I think it will help US-China relations as well since China won't have U.S. forces close by, except in DMZ.

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

4) Japan can purchase military hardware from anyone not just the U.S. Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

5) With self defense of the table, Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level. After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies. And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda. When we agree, we can work with each other, but it will be truly voluntary. No more side-ing with the U.S. simply because we need military protection or we need the market shares. In The end, I think it will make US-Japan better allies since it will be a partnership forged of freewill rather than reliance.

1) I don't think the political pressure the US and Japan have on each other would change if the US military were to leave. That arrangement hasn't changed in over 50 years. What political advantage does the US have? We would never threaten to pull out if Japan didn't do what American leaders wanted. We also would never "invade" Japan militarily.

2) I don't know enough to say that eliminating US bases will improve Japan-China and Japan-Russia relations. Japan will have to replace what they lose if America pulls out with their own military. Nothing changes.

3) I don't know that the Japanese SDF is enough to defend Japan as well as participate in ally activities around the world.

4) I suppose they would be able to buy from other countries. Is anyone complaining about the quality of American military hardware?

5) What enemies of Japan are going to stop being enemies if the American military pulls out?

[Mazikeen]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Like the constitution is amended

The majority of Japanese citizens like their amended. While you're allowing a Japanese war power, why not take away free speech too? I'm sure the conservative right would love that.

Next, I posted my opinions on the benefits.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

What political pressure? We're not forcing Japan into anything whatsoever.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations

The Cold War is over. Russian and American relations are great, as are the relations with Chinese and American. The political status of Japan has nothing to do with the United States anymore. Don't blame us for the animosity these countries may feel towards you, considering the wars fought between Japan, Russia, and China.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

Japan has to earn the world's trust back. It's hard to forgive countries that contributed to over 60 million innocent people being massacred for their own country's glory. As much as I love Japanese culture, it is inherently nationalistic, and therein lies the problem with Japan being a war power again.

We're not afraid of Japan, but it would be too costly for the world at large were countries like Japan or Germany allowed to become war powers again. We're enjoying a modicum of peace right now, and I want that to continue as long as possible, because I love every human being on this planet, not just American people.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

4) Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

The JSDF is already great. It has autonomy from the United States, and did you notice that the United States of America didn't force Japan into the Iraq/Afghanistan wars? They wanted to go in, and it was allowed on a peace-keeping basis. You wanted to leave, you left.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

Do we really need more military technology? Why not focus Japan on other paths of advancement? How about focusing on computers, medicine, automobiles, and so forth? Japan has it great at the moment. You're defended from foreign countries attacking by your own power, and by the United States of America.

There's so much that Japan can do right now, and you know what's great about that? You can do anything you want with your country. The world loves Japan for it's culture, cuisine, and the media it pumps out. The western world is enthralled with your country, and yet you say it's not enough to be loved, you want the ability to kill more effectively.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

5) Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level.

Japan is already on equal footing with the United States.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies.

Nor is Japan forced to participate in anything conflicts that the United States may enter.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda.

Again, this is not the case whatsoever.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I would prefer it also if people stuck to my original 5 debate points.

You have no right to tell people what to talk about, chiuchimu.

[Ronin4hire]

Examples of the kind of political pressure America puts on Japan.

-The bases in Okinawa.
Various polls have shown that the majority of Okinawans want to get rid of the bases altogether. However the Japanese government continues to allow them there.

-The Iraq war.
Japan was part of the "coalition of the willing" despite widespread opposition in Japan to the war.

-Nuclear weapons.
The DPJ revealed to the public (despite the Americans making no secret of it) the fact that under the LDP, American nuclear weapons were stored in Japan (and I think still are stored there). Of course Japan being an anti-nuclear country... this is a pretty big issue.

[Ronin4hire]

I was thinking.. Japan might not need such a big military if it had the nuclear option.

Of course the Japanese public would not be happy about this... but it would deter China or Russia from making any sudden moves and Japan wouldn't need to field such a large military.

[siokan]

1)Chiuchimu doesn't understand the movement of 3MEF.
2)Chiuchimu doesn't understand the war potential of the Self Defense Forces in Japan.
3)Chiuchimu doesn't hear person's story.
4)Chiuchimu does only the self-insistence.
5)Chiuchimu understands neither money nor the time that hangs in the arms development.

Knowledge that is crueller than South Koreans who are ruining 2ch.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Next, I posted my opinions on the benefits.

1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

Im not sure what political pressure you are referring too the US does not force Japan to do what It wants it to do. The only thing the US enforces are treaties that were signed by the Japanese government those are treaties and can not and will not be broken.

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations, I think it will help US-China relations as well since China won't have U.S. forces close by, except in DMZ.

Honestly China-Russia-Japan relations would not drastically improve even if the US military were not in Japan. You need to realize there is a history between all 3 countries that does not include the US and its pretty much all negative. China, US and Russian relations are fairly good regardless if the US is in Japan there are hostilities that wont cease. A lot of Chinese citizens general dislike the Japanese i have met very few that did not hold some type of animosity towards them.

Also, China has begun to test how much they can get away with and exert their influence. One need not but to pick up a news paper to see whats happening.

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

Japan has JSDF to defend the main islands and they are VERY well equipped to repel a certain level of aggression towards Japan with US support. Also, Japan has the luxury of not having to spend billions of Yen to support a standing military. That means that Japan can focus that money in other areas of development. There are advantages to Japan not having a standing military. No one and i mean no one in the world in stupid enough to attack Japan with the bulk of the Pacific US fleet there. I leave your comment up to the people of Japan.

4) Japan can purchase military hardware from anyone not just the U.S. Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

Japan does not and has no need to go along with everything the US deems of interest. As far as i know Japan can purchase military hardware from whom it seems fit (correct me if im wrong) but they have the best of what the US military can provide. They will not be getting the F-35 (lighting) Joint Strike fighter. JSDF is built for what Japan needs it has autonomy.

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

The Japanese would literally from what iv heard have to build this industry as they do not currently have one. Again, i leave this to the Japanese people but remember once you start building and supplying weapons you role changes. Japan has bluntly stated they do not want a role in world affairs larger than what they have now. Even the US has asked Japan to take a larger role world affairs because of Japanese unique perspective but they have hesitant to do so.

5) With self defense of the table, Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level. After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies. And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda. When we agree, we can work with each other, but it will be truly voluntary. No more side-ing with the U.S. simply because we need military protection or we need the market shares. In The end, I think it will make US-Japan better allies since it will be a partnership forged of freewill rather than reliance.

I feel Japan and US are on equal terms the alliance is strong China has suggested recently that Japanese-US relations are weakening which is furthest from the truth. No one is stopping Japan from perusing closer ties with China. Japan's enemies are not America's enemies im not sure whom you are referring too. Japan provided a non combative role in Afghanistan because they wanted too the US did not force Japan into that role and when they wanted to leave and stop operations they did and the US said not a word. Honestly, in a way i think your outlook on Japan as being subservient to the US is off base Japan is not as weak as some would like to portray it.


These are my own opinions im not saying im 100% right but thats how i feel.

[Ronin4hire]

Personally... I think the China-Russia threat is exaggerated.

They would be stupid to attack Japan. And whatever I accuse the Chinese of... the one thing they aren't is stupid.

The only useful purpose the American bases in Japan have are the threat of China against Taiwan.

It's kind of why I'm a little bit conflicted on the issue myself. I support Taiwanese independence... but I suppose it's not Japan's business.

It's why I think a South East Asian security bloc designed to counter the threats of China and the influence of the US is a thing that SEA countries including Japan and South Korea and hopefully India should be working towards.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Personally... I think the China-Russia threat is exaggerated.

They would be stupid to attack Japan. And whatever I accuse the Chinese of... the one thing they aren't is stupid.

The only useful purpose the American bases in Japan have are the threat of China against Taiwan.

It's kind of why I'm a little bit conflicted on the issue myself. I support Taiwanese independence... but I suppose it's not Japan's business.

It's why I think a South East Asian security bloc designed to counter the threats of China and the influence of the US is a thing that SEA countries including Japan and South Korea and hopefully India should be working towards.

The problem is SEA is not working towards it and there are so many issues between Asian countries involved it will be long time before they ever see anything like the EU. China is dominate right now and will only get stronger politically and economically, but imo China is still too infantile in their new rise to know how to handle the power they might weld someday. China is not stupid and they themselves know this to be a fact. It takes more than be strong economically and politically to be a world power one must know how to wield it.

Im conflicted myself about the bases i feel the Okinawan resident about noise and pollution and the destruction of natural wildlife and habitats. However, the latest research reports i read is that an overwhelming majority of Japanese citizens want the bases. Iv spoken numerous experts at American University and at University of Maryland and they all tend to say the same thing. The Japanese need but ask and the US would leave Japan but its so much more complicated than we are making it out to be.