Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[siokan]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

So, The topic: Japan buys out the U.S. bases and the Americans leave but we stay Allies.

Good Idea or Bad?

I think cranks agrees. anyone else for or against the main topic?

To begin with, only small number of 3MEF is in Japan.
(III Marine Expeditionary Force)
You had better check what kind of military unit 3MEF was.

It is restored to the private organization.
The extension and the novel base of other bases exist.
Integration and strengthening.

[Ryzorian]

The US Navy dwarfs all other navies combined, hell even many ships from those navies are old American ships. One Supercarrier has more firepower than what was used in all of WW2 and can project that power over a long distance. It would be like playing chess with all pawns on one side and all queens on the other.

Britain was a superpower for so long despite it's small size because it had a dominant navy. The US has a Dominant navy and is basically a continant..not a small island.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Fantasy perhaps considering that I havent addressed the unresolved issues that exist between SEA.. but it would work.

Consider this.

Having India on board would be essential. Nuclear power and land deterrent to China. Also Indonesia is home to the fourth largest population and borders some of the vital sea lanes we talk about.

All that is needed is a restructuring of armed forces in the region and the economic growth of Indonesia, the Phillipines and we could have a serious deterrent to the US.

Im not saying we will outspend it. But the US and China will think twice before it thinks it can have its way with Asia if this sort of cooperation is worked out.

To include India for the nuclear advantage is an interesting point. It is true that the U.S. doesn't mess with countries possessing nukes. I also had similar ideas but didn't include India. I think your plan is better.

[Ryzorian]

No country messes with another country that posseses nukes, thats just standard protocol. That doesn't mean when push comes to shove the US couldn't handle a country with a few nukes.

We can, the patriot missle system isn't an anti missle system, it's an anti aircraft system that works so well it can shoot down missles, the actual anti missle system has never been seen in real time scenarios. It's also why we get upset when goofballs like kim ill try to launch two stage rockets, we don't want anybody else knowing how well developed our defensive systems really are.

We don't inform anyone because it keeps the illusion up, once the illusion that we don't have a workable defensive ability goes, stability goes as well because now we would be "first strike" capablility, wich jacks up tension. It's why places like iran must not be allowed to develope such systems, because it threatens to reveal the aces we have. Everyone knows we have them, but as long as no one see's them it's not mentioned.Iiran could change world stability by being stupid.

[fluffy0000]

That probably explains why the US after 9 (nine) yrs in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda which have no airforce or navy has managed no better than a stalemate?

[Sangetsu]

This thread is a stupid joke. Japan is as likely to split from the US (to whom it owes it's very existence and success) as it is to sink into the sea tomorrow. The people who run the governments of Japan and America (and other countries) are not idealistic young idiots who dream about what the world should be like, they are people with education and life experience who know that they can only work within the boundaries of reality.

Here is the reality: the world is a competitive place where people and nations will do anything and everything to get ahead. They will happily lie, cheat, or steal to do so if they can get away with it.

The countries of the world do not maintain military forces at huge expense just for self defense. These forces often as not are deployed throughout the world to protect national interests and to insure safe and free trade. In other words, they use the threat of force to further their interests, and protect themselves from being cheated or robbed.

Countries will ally together from time to time for the common good, but only if there is enough to be gained by such an alliance. Japan and the US have a unique relationship which is far different from that of any other nations. This uniqueness has been of great benefit to both countries, and anyone who thinks that Japan or America will give up this relationship anytime in the near future is too stupid to be taken seriously.

India and China will never form any kind of meaningful national alliance. Has anyone here ever actually been to India? India will not be a major world competitor until drastic reforms in the country (ridding of corruption, having a national language, reforming industry and work conditions) are made, and these are unlikely to be completed within the lifetimes of anyone here today. China is in it only for themselves, and will make no alliances without getting the lion's share of any benefit. The rest of Asia recognizes this, and always have; it's only wistful America and Western Society haters that seem to think that another reality is possible.

America will continue to be the world's largest economy going into the 22nd century. China knows this, Japan knows this, and India knows this, and they have been planning accordingly. America is uniquely blessed with the geography, resources, and political system to continue to succeed as such. Japan is allied to the US, as is Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam. India has close ties, and China's vast possession of US bonds have more or less chained it's economy to that of America.

Stop being stupid. If Japan distances itself from America, China and India will be more than happy to step in and continue the dance.

[zoneoni]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

This thread is a stupid joke. Japan is as likely to split from the US (to whom it owes it's very existence and success) as it is to sink into the sea tomorrow. The people who run the governments of Japan and America (and other countries) are not idealistic young idiots who dream about what the world should be like, they are people with education and life experience who know that they can only work within the boundaries of reality.

Here is the reality: the world is a competitive place where people and nations will do anything and everything to get ahead. They will happily lie, cheat, or steal to do so if they can get away with it.

The countries of the world do not maintain military forces at huge expense just for self defense. These forces often as not are deployed throughout the world to protect national interests and to insure safe and free trade. In other words, they use the threat of force to further their interests, and protect themselves from being cheated or robbed.

Countries will ally together from time to time for the common good, but only if there is enough to be gained by such an alliance. Japan and the US have a unique relationship which is far different from that of any other nations. This uniqueness has been of great benefit to both countries, and anyone who thinks that Japan or America will give up this relationship anytime in the near future is too stupid to be taken seriously.

India and China will never form any kind of meaningful national alliance. Has anyone here ever actually been to India? India will not be a major world competitor until drastic reforms in the country (ridding of corruption, having a national language, reforming industry and work conditions) are made, and these are unlikely to be completed within the lifetimes of anyone here today. China is in it only for themselves, and will make no alliances without getting the lion's share of any benefit. The rest of Asia recognizes this, and always have; it's only wistful America and Western Society haters that seem to think that another reality is possible.

America will continue to be the world's largest economy going into the 22nd century. China knows this, Japan knows this, and India knows this, and they have been planning accordingly. America is uniquely blessed with the geography, resources, and political system to continue to succeed as such. Japan is allied to the US, as is Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam. India has close ties, and China's vast possession of US bonds have more or less chained it's economy to that of America.

Stop being stupid. If Japan distances itself from America, China and India will be more than happy to step in and continue the dance.

<------------------------------ +1

[Ronin4hire]

Sangetsu-

You are missing the point. Your post might be realistic to an extent (though Id take issue with a couple of sentences) but its not ideal.

Furthermore, whenever the status quo doesnt satisfy, the potential for change is there.

Not to mention the status quo doesnt last forever.

We are discussing what sort of shape that change would or could take. Now I dont think that is stupid at all.

Now to address a couple of things...

I think you might have got the misunderstanding that people were saying that Japan and India could stand up to China and the US. I was saying that Japan and South East Asia INCLUDING India could stand up to China and the US.

Its not as absurd as you might think it is. Already ASEAN is working on creating an EU type trading bloc in South East Asia. Naturally if such a goal is realised, the sort of military alliance to protect the collective interest would be needed.

Your assessment of the US economy in the 22nd century is very positive. But its not what Ive heard. You have to realise that measuring economies is not like measuring your dick. There are various things you have to take into account. What Ive heard is that in a couple of decades the Chinese economy will overtake the US economy in many areas.

On a side not.... have you heard of the DongFeng 21D? Its China's new anti-ship missile that is undergoing tests at the moment. Its dubbed "the carrier buster" and could be a real game changer. I mean with the threat of US carriers nullified, I dont know how the US could hope to project its power.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

This thread is a stupid joke. Japan is as likely to split from the US (to whom it owes it's very existence and success) as it is to sink into the sea tomorrow. The people who run the governments of Japan and America (and other countries) are not idealistic young idiots who dream about what the world should be like, they are people with education and life experience who know that they can only work within the boundaries of reality.

Here is the reality: the world is a competitive place where people and nations will do anything and everything to get ahead. They will happily lie, cheat, or steal to do so if they can get away with it.

The countries of the world do not maintain military forces at huge expense just for self defense. These forces often as not are deployed throughout the world to protect national interests and to insure safe and free trade. In other words, they use the threat of force to further their interests, and protect themselves from being cheated or robbed.

Countries will ally together from time to time for the common good, but only if there is enough to be gained by such an alliance. Japan and the US have a unique relationship which is far different from that of any other nations. This uniqueness has been of great benefit to both countries, and anyone who thinks that Japan or America will give up this relationship anytime in the near future is too stupid to be taken seriously.

India and China will never form any kind of meaningful national alliance. Has anyone here ever actually been to India? India will not be a major world competitor until drastic reforms in the country (ridding of corruption, having a national language, reforming industry and work conditions) are made, and these are unlikely to be completed within the lifetimes of anyone here today. China is in it only for themselves, and will make no alliances without getting the lion's share of any benefit. The rest of Asia recognizes this, and always have; it's only wistful America and Western Society haters that seem to think that another reality is possible.

America will continue to be the world's largest economy going into the 22nd century. China knows this, Japan knows this, and India knows this, and they have been planning accordingly. America is uniquely blessed with the geography, resources, and political system to continue to succeed as such. Japan is allied to the US, as is Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam. India has close ties, and China's vast possession of US bonds have more or less chained it's economy to that of America.

Stop being stupid. If Japan distances itself from America, China and India will be more than happy to step in and continue the dance.

So, you think the people in power(US and Japan) know what they are doing? Are acting in the most intelligent way?

The core Idea here was Japan having it's own military. Every Industrialized nation has it's own military. What could possibly be so stupid about that?

If you even suggested to Israel, England, France, Canada, Australia or anywhere that they should give up there military and let America handle it because American military is so much more effective and it will cost less, They will laugh at your face first, then spit in it and send you on your way. Give Japan the same respect you would these countries.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Sangetsu-



On a side not.... have you heard of the DongFeng 21D? Its China's new anti-ship missile that is undergoing tests at the moment. Its dubbed "the carrier buster" and could be a real game changer. I mean with the threat of US carriers nullified, I dont know how the US could hope to project its power.

Try looking up what the US has been upto over the last decade that makes China's anti-ship missile look like a harpoon. Also striking a carrier is not as easy as it sounds its not like the carrier is out at sea by itself there are countermeasures already in place. The US knew that someone eventually would develop this type of missile. You know the US does not show its hand and hardly ever shows the full extent of the military might it possess. Its like a game of poker keep your poker face on keep your card hidden and make the other guy blink first.

Anyway though i think this thread is pretty pointless because these kind threads never truly go anywhere and usually turn into a flame war. I will say that Japan and the US's partnership will not change anytime soon if it does it will not be in our lifetime. We can speculate all we want but in honesty there is no one here that is qualified to make any type of educated guess to the matter.

I see the OP is saying though very naive the OP bought real points i dont agree with all them but trying to think outside the box is admirable. chiuchimu However you are missing several points that numerous people have tried to tell you "Japan does not want it own military" "it does not want to spend trillions of yen a year to maintain it". This is more than just give Japan more respect. If Japan wants a military they need to change their "pacifist Constitution" to do so. You make it sound like its so easy for them to do so when an over whelming number of Japanese do not want it.