Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

The only reason that it gets so much coverage is because Japan is still inherently a nationalistic country. The idea of a foreigner committing a crime is that much more heinous there.

I dont know what youve heard... but America is WAY more nationalistic than Japan. Ive lived in both countries by the way.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I dont know what youve heard... but America is WAY more nationalistic than Japan. Ive lived in both countries by the way.

I think that is kind of a hard statement to make definitively. Nationalism and patriotism are different things.

There are certainly patriotic people (and nationalistic) people in both countries. I think in general Japanese people are more subtle with their patriotism, until it is Japan vs. China in the World Cup.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think that is kind of a hard statement to make definitively. Nationalism and patriotism are different things.

There are certainly patriotic people (and nationalistic) people in both countries. I think in general Japanese people are more subtle with their patriotism, until it is Japan vs. China in the World Cup.

I dont believe in patriotism. The conscience and the belief in the nation are two entirely different things.

I get your point though.. American nationalism and Japanese nationalism are expressed differently so difficult to measure.

Fair enough.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

I think for the sake of Japan's safety, the prospect of US forces leaving would be very disastrous to Japan. Furthermore, Allies of the United States of America also get the protection by the world's strongest military power. People like to fancy that the Middle Eastern wars being fought are bloody, but we're not even putting the full focus of our military on the region.

It's remarkably funny how some of these chats go. Lots of Japanese posters fancy trading one protective older brother for another in China, but I think it's silly to even consider that idea, don't all of you agree? Japan has it really good with the United States, and any offenses by American military personnel seriously pales in comparison to the number of rapes, murders, and so forth that occur in Japan on a yearly basis. The only reason that it gets so much coverage is because Japan is still inherently a nationalistic country. The idea of a foreigner committing a crime is that much more heinous there.

No. I don' agree.

you think the U.S. should stay. Your main argument is U.S. has been a good Allie and protectorate. Good argument. see your point.
Someone else said the majority of Japanese want the U.S. there. That's the strongest argument so far.


What is 'silly' with wanting our own military? Why can't Japan have a military and remain strong allies with the U.S.? England has a great military. Isn't U.S. and England strong allies?

Why can't japan have an independent relationship with China? Japan should let China know that it can increase it's U.S. involvement if China flexes its might, and likewise let America know that It might deal with China in ways that U.S. might not approve of. Like buying and selling military goods( not too much buying at this time). Keeping trade open even if the U.S. boycotts.


If the only way for the U.S. and Japan to be allies is that Japan lets America keep its military bases in Japan then I think something is wrong with that relationship.

[Mazikeen]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Why can't Japan have a military and remain strong allies with the U.S.? England has a great military. Isn't U.S. and England strong allies?

Yes, but you have to remember that we were originally British colonies. We defeated the world's strongest military at the time and become our own country. While England has been awfully nasty to the USA at different points in history, it's never engaged in combat with us since the war of 1812. That was a long time ago and not even remotely close as severe as the repercussions caused by the Axis in World War II.

Over 45,000,000 innocent civilians were butchered by the Axis during World War II. Over 16,000,000 Allied soldiers died in World War II. The Allied forced paid a heavy, almost unbearable price since then. Allied forces, primarily the United States of America, helped build Japan and Germany into the economic powerhouses that they are today, despite the horrific crimes committed by their governments. Japan itself killed over 10,000,000 people from 1937-1945. Do you grasp the enormity of that? I doubt you actually understand it, or else you wouldn't be whining about the lack of a military.

I hope you don't feel too bad. Japan shares it's lack of a military with Germany. Nobody wants Japan or Germany to have the ability to wage war again. I seriously think Germany and Japan came out okay in the end, regardless of the horrible, horrible nature of their crimes against humanity. You actually got your country back, and now you want a military, and it's just not going to happen. This is the truth of the matter, just accept it.

[siokan]

China cannot trust it.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

Yes, but you have to remember that we were originally British colonies. We defeated the world's strongest military at the time and become our own country. While England has been awfully nasty to the USA at different points in history, it's never engaged in combat with us since the war of 1812. That was a long time ago and not even remotely close as severe as the repercussions caused by the Axis in World War II.

Over 45,000,000 innocent civilians were butchered by the Axis during World War II. Over 16,000,000 Allied soldiers died in World War II. The Allied forced paid a heavy, almost unbearable price since then. Allied forces, primarily the United States of America, helped build Japan and Germany into the economic powerhouses that they are today, despite the horrific crimes committed by their governments. Japan itself killed over 10,000,000 people from 1937-1945. Do you grasp the enormity of that? I doubt you actually understand it, or else you wouldn't be whining about the lack of a military.

I hope you don't feel too bad. Japan shares it's lack of a military with Germany. Nobody wants Japan or Germany to have the ability to wage war again. I seriously think Germany and Japan came out okay in the end, regardless of the horrible, horrible nature of their crimes against humanity. You actually got your country back, and now you want a military, and it's just not going to happen. This is the truth of the matter, just accept it.

Excuse me?

America committed genocide against the Native Americans so you can get off your high horse.

It amazes me how many Americans think WW2 was like the beginning of time or something.

Anyway... you are an idiot.

The military bases in Japan and Germany have nothing to do with their past and more to do with the cold war and the projection of power. Furthermore, Japan and Germany's lack of military is pretty much self-imposed.

[GoNative]

Ronin the points made by Mazikeen are not invalidated by the fact that the US has also committed henious acts in its past. Japan too doesn't have a great history of it's treatment of it's indigenous peoples. Australia doesn't either. In fact don't know if we could find any country in the world where the indigenous peoples weren't treated abysmally. None of that has any bearing though on what happened during WWII and what's occurred since then...

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Ronin the points made by Mazikeen are not invalidated by the fact that the US has also committed henious acts in its past. Japan too doesn't have a great history of it's treatment of it's indigenous peoples. Australia doesn't either. In fact don't know if we could find any country in the world where the indigenous peoples weren't treated abysmally. None of that has any bearing though on what happened during WWII and what's occurred since then...

Wait a minute... you actually support his point?

He is trying to say that Japan and Germany should be prevented from having a military because they will naturally go out and try and take over the world again.

I was reminding him that America's track record is not so great either.

[GoNative]

Don't know if I agree totally with his points but just saying that the US's treatment of it's indigenous peoples is hardly a valid argument against the points he makes.
Both Japan and Germany are hardly defenceless. Both countries are in the top 10 for military expenditure in the world. For instance Japan spends more than double what Australia does.

One thing I do agree with though is that both Germany and Japan should have some oversight of their military, whether it be from the US or the UN. There really should be some consequences for being the aggressors in what was the biggest loss of human life in the history of mankind through war. You can't just do something like that and expect the world to never ever again be concerned about your military capabilities.