Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

Don't know if I agree totally with his points but just saying that the US's treatment of it's indigenous peoples is hardly a valid argument against the points he makes.

Why not? He was making a righteous argument so I was pointing out he had no right to feel so righteous.

Anyway.. it wasnt the only point I made.

Originally Posted by GoNative

One thing I do agree with though is that both Germany and Japan should have some oversight of their military, whether it be from the US or the UN. There really should be some consequences for being the aggressors in what was the biggest loss of human life in the history of mankind through war. You can't just do something like that and expect the world to never ever again be concerned about your military capabilities.

I completely disagree. You dont trust Japan or Germany? What an outdated viewpoint you hold. More important than what countries did in the past is what they are doing now. Im more worried about the actions of America and China than Japan and Germany.

[siokan]

Reason why defense expenditure of Japan is high.

Employment cost
Price of arms

The military power is not proportional to a defense budget.

[GoNative]

How much of what they are doing now though is due to the oversight of their military? Worth considering?

I doubt my view is considered all that outdated, even by many Japanese who strongly believe that Japan should remain a peaceful nation without offensive military capabilities. Many here haven't forgotten what happened the last time they let the military and nationalists have their way

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

How much of what they are doing now though is due to the oversight of their military? Worth considering?

I dont know what you meant by that.. please rephrase.

Originally Posted by GoNative

I doubt my view is considered all that outdated, even by many Japanese who strongly believe that Japan should remain a peaceful nation without offensive military capabilities. Many here haven't forgotten what happened the last time they let the military and nationalists have their way

That's not saying the same thing though. You said that Japan and Germany should be overseen by the US because of their past. Its different to saying that Japan and German militaries should be overseen by a civilian government (as it is in the US and most Western nations.)

[GoNative]

No, what I said is that there should be consequences for being the aggressors in what was the biggest loss of human life from war in the history of mankind.
Start a world war that kills 10's of millions of people and you lose, there should be consequences. You don't have to agree with me but that's the way I think. And I believe that one of the consequences should be that you lose the right to ever again develop a military force capable of waging a similar worldwide conflict. Germany waged 2 world wars last century. I certainly wouldn't trust them again with a massive military!

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

No, what I said is that there should be consequences for being the aggressors in what was the biggest loss of human life from war in the history of mankind.
Start a world war that kills 10's of millions of people and you lose, there should be consequences. You don't have to agree with me but that's the way I think. And I believe that one of the consequences should be that you lose the right to ever again develop a military force capable of waging a similar worldwide conflict. Germany waged 2 world wars last century. I certainly wouldn't trust them again with a massive military!

That there are consequences for losers in war is just a fact of human history so I dont disagree with that. (I dont know what your point is then if that is all you were saying. I mean I thought you were implying that you believed in US oversight of Japan's military.)

I disagree that WW2 is in any way relevant to whether or not Japan or Germany should be "allowed" to have a military and that it was "the biggest loss of human life from a way in history" means nothing.

As it turns out... should Japan and Germany choose to increase their commitments to their militaries then there is really nothing we can do to stop them so you and Marzikeen had invalid points right from the beginning and I was only really attacking the self-righteous way in which those points were being made.

[Mazikeen]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Why not? He was making a righteous argument so I was pointing out he had no right to feel so righteous.

Yes, unlike the aboriginal people of Japan and Australia, we actually learn about the horrible things we did to the Native Americans while in school, it's especially important to me because I am part Native American. Your counter argument is stupid. You lose.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I completely disagree. You dont trust Japan or Germany?

Yes, this is because they both have a lengthy history of invading other countries, murdering, enslaving, raping, and pillaging the populace. This is more true with Japan than with Germany, WWI and WWII are the primarily reason I don't trust Germany.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I'm more worried about the actions of America and China

What are the US forces doing that's so bad, sweetie? Did we finally top a regime we should have twenty years ago? Hey, I bet Kurds are happy that Saddam Hussein isn't gassing them anymore! And what's your problem with Afghanistan? You might want to talk about the UN forces there about that, considering it's a multi-national effort.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

than Japan and Germany.

Oh, I'm sorry! When was the last time that Americans put prisoners into pressure chambers until they die, buried them alive, infected their prisoners with diseases, massacred tens of millions on a mere whim, and so forth?

That's right, we've never done that to any foreign nationals, and we were never even remotely like that towards Native Americans.

[MMM]

I am starting to see insulting language being used, and that will not be tolerated.

[Mazikeen]

Here's to another 65 years of Japan and Germany being unable to wage war, ladies and gentlemen. Let us continue praying that another conflict on the levels of the world wars never comes again!

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I dont know what you meant by that.. please rephrase.



That's not saying the same thing though. You said that Japan and Germany should be overseen by the US because of their past. Its different to saying that Japan and German militaries should be overseen by a civilian government (as it is in the US and most Western nations.)

I find this statement very logical. The countries are not the same anymore. Politics should be dealing with whats going on now.

According to Mazikeen logic, all the horrible things one country has don't to another in the past are unimportant except the for Germany and Japan. These two are the only ones that must pay forever.

That is such an "American" way at looking at history.