Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

No. I don' agree.

you think the U.S. should stay. Your main argument is U.S. has been a good Allie and protectorate. Good argument. see your point.
Someone else said the majority of Japanese want the U.S. there. That's the strongest argument so far.


What is 'silly' with wanting our own military? Why can't Japan have a military and remain strong allies with the U.S.? England has a great military. Isn't U.S. and England strong allies?

Why can't japan have an independent relationship with China? Japan should let China know that it can increase it's U.S. involvement if China flexes its might, and likewise let America know that It might deal with China in ways that U.S. might not approve of. Like buying and selling military goods( not too much buying at this time). Keeping trade open even if the U.S. boycotts.


If the only way for the U.S. and Japan to be allies is that Japan lets America keep its military bases in Japan then I think something is wrong with that relationship.

Once again, at the end of the second war Japan signed an "unconditional surrender" meaning that they lost the right to decide their destiny from that point. Japan was more or less a US territory, and the US was able to build military bases because the terms of the surrender took away any right the Japanese had to protest such actions. Now you know why the bases were built.

After the surrender and the building of the bases, the Japanese government and economy was rebuilt, largely guided by General MacArthur. MacArthur also oversaw the writing of the new Japanese Constitution, which is the law of the land to this day. This constitution specifically forbids Japan from possessing a military capable of offensive action.

Since the end of the war Japan and America have signed various treaties concerning the stationing of US troops in Japan. Japan shares half of the cost maintaining these forces, but this generally isn't begrudged, as the amount of economic activity generated by the industries and services which supply the bases nearly makes up for the expense. In the areas where US bases are located, they represent more than half of the local economy, and Japanese are employed in all but the most sensitive positions.

The majority of Japanese are not opposed to the US military in Japan. This subject came up a lot during Hatoyama's last days, and polls were taken at my school to measure opinion. Not surprisingly, the split was 80/20 in favor of keeping US forces in Japan.

Those who are most opposed to the presence of the bases are those who are too young to remember why they were built in the first place. Others complain about the noise of aircraft coming and going at all hours. I guess they don't remember the same noise which was generated there 60-odd years ago when it was caused by Japanese airplanes.

Japan has it's own private relationship with China. Japanese automakers have been producing cars and other such things in China for years, but there remains no love lost between the two countries. To this day a Japanese walking anywhere around China is going to get less-than-friendly treatment. I remember going to Chinese restaurants in America with my Japanese girlfriend and being surprised at the obvious coldness that the restaurant staff expressed. A good deal of the staff were born in America, and none of them were around during the war, yet they instantly recognized that my girlfriend was Japanese, and they became unfriendly. My girlfriend was not put off by the treatment because it was commonplace. It is going to be a long time before Japan and China have a warm relationship, if ever at all.

[chiuchimu]

^ Yes. facts I know.

The constitution is the only argument you put forth. That can be amended.

You didn't answer my question: "Why is it silly for Japan to have it's own military?"

This is what you stated:
you stated history of Japans rampage. someone already stated that before you. I argued that it's irreverent today.

you stated the constitution. I addressed that above

you stated economics. half the cost. It's still our choice to amend the constitution.

you stated people don't want change. some one already gave that argument. opinions can change, If the people want it, will it be OK?.

you stated, china might become dangerous. yes. Still that's our choice and it has nothing to do with Japanese military bases.

Let me place more focus on question:
" If the Japanese people voted to change the constitution so Japan can have a military again." is there anything objectionable about that?

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I find this statement very logical. The countries are not the same anymore. Politics should be dealing with whats going on now.

According to Mazikeen logic, all the horrible things one country has don't to another in the past are unimportant except the for Germany and Japan. These two are the only ones that must pay forever.

That is such an "American" way at looking at history.

That is absolute rubbish. Just within our region here in Asia there are prejudices and distrust between countries for things that went on over 1000 years ago. Such things happen the world over, humans are pretty good at holding grudges.

At the end of the day, as others have pointed out, here in Japan the majority of people have few problems with US forces being stationed here. The country is split over the issue of the role of it's own military though. There is a strong pacifist movement here that actually claim it's unconstitutional for Japan to even have a defence force at all (their interpretation of Article 9) and there are the nationalists who would like to see Japan become a great military power to be reckoned with once more. Recent posturing by Nth Korea and the looming threat of the behemoth that is China have certainly reignited the debate in recent years.

I think it's important that Japan be able to defend their country but I believe it's also important that they never be able to wage an aggressive, expansionist war ever again and I think most Japanese would agree with that. I certainly can't see how removing US bases would assist the defense of Japan or lesson any threat to this country.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

Yes, unlike the aboriginal people of Japan and Australia, we actually learn about the horrible things we did to the Native Americans while in school, it's especially important to me because I am part Native American. Your counter argument is stupid. You lose.

Oh my God.. way to miss the point. I love how this technicality apparently lets you off the hook. If you were advocating that the history of Ainu be taught in classrooms then I would agree with you. But you aren't... so I'm not.

Oh by the way.. which countries didn't sign the fairly recent declaration which recognised the rights of Indigenous peoples? Japan did... Oh yeah.. Australia, Canada, the United States and New Zealand didn't. Ironically I actually support not signing the treaty.. but I'm just pointing out that the Japan in your imaginiation is not the Japan of reality.

Furthermore... You don't think that most Japanese are against war and genocide?

I don't know what you are doing on Japanforum.. because you obviously know nothing about modern Japan.

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

Yes, this is because they both have a lengthy history of invading other countries, murdering, enslaving, raping, and pillaging the populace. This is more true with Japan than with Germany, WWI and WWII are the primarily reason I don't trust Germany.

Slavery anyone? Genocide of Native Americans? How about witch hunting? I love it how you think the technicality of doing it within a border makes it OK. Oh wait.. the Vietnam war where America supported a corrupt South Vietnamese government and raped and pillaged villages who were thought to support the VC.

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

What are the US forces doing that's so bad, sweetie? Did we finally top a regime we should have twenty years ago? Hey, I bet Kurds are happy that Saddam Hussein isn't gassing them anymore! And what's your problem with Afghanistan? You might want to talk about the UN forces there about that, considering it's a multi-national effort.

What was that? Guantanamo bay anyone? What about the many prisons that exist like it? What about the fact that thousands of direct violations of the Geneva convention occured which is what Japan's crime was regarding the POWs? How about the unconditional support of Israel in their oppression of Palestinians?

Originally Posted by Mazikeen

Oh, I'm sorry! When was the last time that Americans put prisoners into pressure chambers until they die, buried them alive, infected their prisoners with diseases, massacred tens of millions on a mere whim, and so forth?

That's right, we've never done that to any foreign nationals, and we were never even remotely like that towards Native Americans.

Oh so it's not a question of moral standing.. It's a question of scale?

Massacre a few thousand natives (women and children included), force a few thousands of Africans into slavery, depose a few legitimate regimes during the cold war and installing totalitarian dictators instead killing another few million. Support the Israeli's in their oppression of Palestinians killing another few thousand.. no harm done?

I can't believe I'm reading this.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I think it's important that Japan be able to defend their country but I believe it's also important that they never be able to wage an aggressive, expansionist war ever again and I think most Japanese would agree with that. I certainly can't see how removing US bases would assist the defense of Japan or lesson any threat to this country.

Do you think the same about Britain and her navy? Not to mention all the other colonial European powers? Just want to make sure you aren't holding any double standards here.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say that nobody should be able to wage an aggressive expansionist war?

I mean singling out Japan just seems logically unsupportive.

[GoNative]

It isn't singling out Japan. We have been talking about the two countries that singlehandedly killed more people in one war than in any previous conflict in human history. If you're trying to turn this into some sort of racist debate you're way off base.

Your comment above about scales though I think does come into it. There's very few nations on this planet that haven't killed off the indigenous peoples of the countries they now live in. There are very few nations though that have expanded beyond their own countries to invade other soverign nations and kill 10's of millions of people. Of course past civilisations have done similar expansions like the Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc. But none of these countries today pose a serious military threat do they? With WWII we are still talking about a conflict that's not just relagated to the history books. Many are still alive who partook in it or were greatly affected by it. It'll be sometime yet I think before people would be comfortable with the idea of Japan or Germany building up their military to be capable of seriously posing an offensive threat.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

It isn't singling out Japan. We have been talking about the two countries that singlehandedly killed more people in one war than in any previous conflict in human history. If you're trying to turn this into some sort of racist debate you're way off base.

Your comment above about scales though I think does come into it. There's very few nations on this planet that haven't killed off the indigenous peoples of the countries they now live in. There are very few nations though that have expanded beyond their own countries to invade other soverign nations and kill 10's of millions of people. Of course past civilisations have done similar expansions like the Romans, Greeks, Mongols, etc. But none of these countries today pose a serious military threat do they? With WWII we are still talking about a conflict that's not just relagated to the history books. Many are still alive who partook in it or were greatly affected by it. It'll be sometime yet I think before people would be comfortable with the idea of Japan or Germany building up their military to be capable of seriously posing an offensive threat.

As an emotional appeal you might have some traction. I mean I suppose you are right about the fact that people are still alive that experienced the war.

However as a logical argument you have no traction.

Colonialism inflicted possibly as much death and destruction as WW2 did.

Furthermore... if WW3 occurs and the death toll is surpassed.. does that let Japan and Germany off the hook if they aren't involved? I mean all of a sudden they AREN'T the people that "killed more people in one war than in any previous conflict in human history."

That is why I think scale is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the state that both countries are in NOW.

That is all I'm arguing. And I don't see the problem with comprehending that point.

[siokan]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Let me place more focus on question:
" If the Japanese people voted to change the constitution so Japan can have a military again." is there anything objectionable about that?

It is theoretical possible. It is realistically impossible.

Big problem of blocking.
*There is no special company that develops arms.
*Arms cannot be exported. (importance)
*There is no knowledge of the accumulated development.
*There is no money turned to development cost!!!!!!(the importance)

The possibility goes out if maintenance can be done by about 30 years by tripling the defense expenditure in the future.

Purchase of Assault rifle=Price ten times another country
F-2Multirole fighter(F-16 base)=F-16 Six times price
The consequence that annuls the arms development unlike Germany is this....
One that is the U.S. military Yat is far cheap.

[Mazikeen]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

That is all I'm arguing. And I don't see the problem with comprehending that point.

Actually, you're attempting to piss all over the United States of America while expounding on that point. It doesn't matter what the country is like now. It's going to be a terribly long time before Japan or Germany are war powers again. You need to accept that, Ronin4hire.

I had actually written out a big reply to everything you brought up in your past few arguments, but you know what's funny about that? I don't need to, because the United States made it up to Native Americans, and African Americans. We have an African American president in office, and they have the same rights as any American would. Furthermore, many Native American bands, nations, and tribes enjoy independence from the United States while also being citizens of the United States of America.

I will have to suggest you stop trying to dirty the United States of America in this discussion. You really haven't much to go on anymore. The fact of the matter is that Japan and Germany will not be war powers anytime soon. It's not just the United States of America enforcing that, do you even get that?

The United States of America gave Japan it's independence back, it rebuilt it's infrastructure, and it helped make Japan into the powerhouse it is today. Your whining about a lack of ability to wage war is misguided and pointless. However, the problem is you do not have the humility to accept that and participate in a more productive discussion, so this inane discussion will continue on forever, a conflagration of pointless banter and personal attacks, while being unable to see the reality of the situation at hand, harmful to anyone with common sense. So, it is with this post that I bid the topic at hand farewell.

[Ronin4hire]

It only seems like I'm "pissing" on America because you are giving us a bullshit narrative where America is some righteous nation that hold's the moral high ground.

The United States has made some progress in some areas I'm not denying that. To be honest I think Bush did so badly that America would've voted for any Democratic candidate.. and I don't think giving Native Americans casino's and reserves is "making it up to them" but it's progress of some sort I guess.

And if you bothered reading the thread I also said Japan could not go it alone.. but not because of your bullshit reasons... but because of logistical reasons. So I already believed that Japan will not become a military power in the foreseeable future. It's time for you to accept that America will be judged for what it does... not for what it says it is.