Split: The removal of U.S. forces from Japan

[chiuchimu]

The other thread wast big and going everywhere so I wanted to focus on the key to new relations in Asia for Japan.

Japan and America can be alias but the U.S. manned bases have to go. No other industrialized nation has foreign military bases operating autonomously. The American forces in South Korea are realistically under Korean supervision. they can't do anything without Korean approval(from what I've heard in Korean forums). You never hear of G.I.s raping little girls in Korea.

I believe a compromise would be for Japan to purchase at a reasonable price the U.S. bases and over a five year period slowly take over the operation.

1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations, I think it will help US-China relations as well since China won't have U.S. forces close by, except in DMZ.

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

4) Japan can purchase military hardware from anyone not just the U.S. Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

5) With self defense of the table, Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level. After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies. And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda. When we agree, we can work with each other, but it will be truly voluntary. No more side-ing with the U.S. simply because we need military protection or we need the market shares. In The end, I think it will make US-Japan better allies since it will be a partnership forged of freewill rather than reliance.


Basically, most other countries including, U.S. Russia, China, Canada, England, France, Switzerland etc.. are doing this. They all have their own military.

[MMM]

You write as if Japan and the US aren't quite allies and they have different interests and different enemies.

If I understand correctly, the majority of Japanese are happy having the US taking care of Japan's military defense.

Your argument about self-regulation and sexual assault around military bases in Japan vs. Korea doesn't ring true, as US soldiers have been accused of theft, and rape in Korea as well as Japan. That being the case, there are bad apples in any group of people.

ALTs on the JET Program have also been accused of terrible crimes. Does that mean the JET Program should be cancelled and all foreign teachers in Japan should be expelled? Or does the benefit outweigh the cost? That's blaming the majority for what a handful of bad apples do.

[fluffy0000]

dude, several other industrialized nations have US bases located in their countries. Some since end of WW2 1945,. Germany and Italy for example have US forces forces stationed in their respective countries for the simple reason Germany and Japan, Italy unilaterally started a 2nd World War and lost.

US forces do not operate autonomously in Japan but under A Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) is an agreement between a host country and a foreign nation stationing forces in that country. SOFAs are often included, along with other types of military agreements, as part of a comprehensive security arrangement.

While the United States military has the largest foreign presence and therefore accounts for most SOFAs, the United Kingdom, France, Australia, Germany, Italy, Russia, South Korea, and many other nations also station troops abroad and negotiate SOFAs with their host countries.

In order for Japan to re-arm itself - it would have to trash it's consitution and and remove the current US forces. All the while setting off a arms race throughout Asia. Japan has the 3rd largest economy on the planet with a spending defense budget that ranks fifth largest on the planet.

FYI the US spends more on defense than 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th militay powers on the planet combined and then some.

Good luck with your fantasy removal of US forces.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

The other thread wast big and going everywhere so I wanted to focus on the key to new relations in Asia for Japan.

Japan and America can be alias but the U.S. manned bases have to go.

Eventually, maybe.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

No other industrialized nation has foreign military bases operating autonomously.

Germany?

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

The American forces in South Korea are realistically under Korean supervision.
they can't do anything without Korean approval(from what I've heard in Korean forums). You never hear of G.I.s raping little girls in Korea.

The US actually even have the control of South Korean military.(戦時作戦統制権) Korean can't even control their own military force if they go into a war. Korean guys are usually very nationalistic, so I would take their word with a grain of salt. I doubt there was no rape case in Korea. I would also like to point out that American military personnel's crime rate is lower than Japanese civilians' average in Okinawa.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I believe a compromise would be for Japan to purchase at a reasonable price the U.S. bases and over a five year period slowly take over the operation.

Under 米軍再編 that is going on right now, America is returning 4 or 5 bases to Japan. For free.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

1) U.S. and japan are still allies but U.S. ability to apply political pressure on Japan is far Less.

this is good

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

2) US military is out of Japan making it easier for Japan - China- Russian relations, I think it will help US-China relations as well since China won't have U.S. forces close by, except in DMZ.

Yes, China would be happy for sure. How will we defend Senkaku and Okinawa?

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

3) Japan has a military able to defend itself. No explanation needed.

What do we do about 33 Chinese nuclear missiles that are pointed at all major Japanese cities?

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

4) Japan can purchase military hardware from anyone not just the U.S. Further more the military can be built towards what we think we will need not along U.S. interests.

I would pass made in China when it comes to weapons.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

4) Japan can develop some military technology. Like the U.S. this will help private business develop and compete. Sales of weapons will help offset military costs.

Somewhat agree. Export of weapons may be crucial to military autonomy.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

5) With self defense of the table, Japan can negotiate with America on a more equal level. After all, America's enemies don't have to be Japan's enemies. And American agenda need not be Japan's agenda. When we agree, we can work with each other, but it will be truly voluntary. No more side-ing with the U.S. simply because we need military protection or we need the market shares. In The end, I think it will make US-Japan better allies since it will be a partnership forged of freewill rather than reliance.

Honestly, I don't find any country in the area I want to side with than the US. Yes, America is not perfect, but most anybody else is a lot worse.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Basically, most other countries including, U.S. Russia, China, Canada, England, France, Switzerland etc.. are doing this. They all have their own military.

Japan has military... It's only Japanese people who say it doesn't.　自衛隊 is not 軍隊 is a word play which only makes sense with Kanji.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by cranks

Eventually, maybe.
Germany?

True, but it's not the same. Germany has a huge military - they don't need U.S. protection. those base are still there to serve U.S. needs as jump points so U.S. can project its power. The bases in Germany as well as others are only there because countries lost the war.

[quote/]
The US actually even have the control of South Korean military.(戦時作戦統制権) Korean can't even control their own military force if they go into a war. Korean guys are usually very nationalistic, so I would take their word with a grain of salt. I doubt there was no rape case in Korea. I would also like to point out that American military personnel's crime rate is lower than Japanese civilians' average in Okinawa. [\quote]
Maybe Koreans are bios but I'm leaving that there. I've heard of korean protest against U.S. in there country but that was 15~20 years ago.

Bad comparisons. small number of U.S. solders Vs total Okinawan population. By the way, did you know up until 30 years ago a lot of this was note being recorded or cases were found innocent by military courts. One case changed all that, three black solders raping a 15 year old and dumping her for dead in the fields. The military courts tried the three and found them innocent. this time it wasn't only Japanese TV that was watching, but U.S. TV was carrying the news and following the story. The truth wouldn't even be out if it wasn't for this case. This alone is reason enough to take over the bases.


[quote/]
Under 米軍再編 that is going on right now, America is returning 4 or 5 bases to Japan. For free.[/quote]
Good. I bet they keep at least one as a jump point, forever.

[quote/]
Yes, China would be happy for sure. How will we defend Senkaku and Okinawa?
What do we do about 33 Chinese nuclear missiles that are pointed at all major Japanese cities?[/quote]
this is were politics comes to play. Let China know that we are removing the U.S. for more stability in the region. But start anything remotely aggressive and see how fast the U.S. will jump at the chance to keep close eyes on China.


"I would pass made in China when it comes to weapons." Me too.


"Somewhat agree. Export of weapons may be crucial to military autonomy." And help tech all around.


"Honestly, I don't find any country in the area I want to side with than the US. Yes, America is not perfect, but most anybody else is a lot worse."
Asia will be the next economic giant if we work together on it.

[quote/]
Japan has military... It's only Japanese people who say it doesn't.　自衛隊 is not 軍隊 is a word play which only makes sense with Kanji.[/quote]
I've spoken to white solders station in Japan about this( closing the bases). They felt the Japanese forces are too weak without the bases to fall back on. I believe them. But, we can turn the SDF into a force capable of repelling as well as discouraging attacks.

[MMM]

< You need to fix your quote tags... it makes it hard to read >

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Bad comparisons. small number of U.S. solders Vs total Okinawan population.

crime rates are independent of how many people are involved. A rate is like 1 in every 100,000 or whatever. Doesn't matter if you are talking about a few thousand or few million people.
Not sure if cranks assertion is correct but the difference in populations of soldiers versus Okinawans doesn't influence the rates, it affects the total number.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Bad comparisons. small number of U.S. solders Vs total Okinawan population.

It is a good comparison. The rate (%) is lower in military population than in the Okinawan population.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

By the way, did you know up until 30 years ago a lot of this was note being recorded or cases were found innocent by military courts. One case changed all that, three black solders raping a 15 year old and dumping her for dead in the fields. The military courts tried the three and found them innocent. this time it wasn't only Japanese TV that was watching, but U.S. TV was carrying the news and following the story. The truth wouldn't even be out if it wasn't for this case. This alone is reason enough to take over the bases.

So international military policy should be changed because of one case that took place 30 years ago?

[Ronin4hire]

True, but it's not the same. Germany has a huge military - they don't need U.S. protection. those base are still there to serve U.S. needs as jump points so U.S. can project its power. The bases in Germany as well as others are only there because countries lost the war.

Germany have a huge military?

If I remember correctly, they have a similar military expeniditure to Japan.

And the bases are not there just because they lost the war. There was a period after the World War 2 which ended in 1991. It was called the Cold War. Its the same reason the bases in Japan stayed.

The bases are still there because the countries involved in the Cold War are still competing for influence.

Anyway... I would like to see the Americans leave Japan too.

But I think it can only happen under a stronger Asia.

The South East Asian region needs to come together to become like the EU, and forge an alliance as potent as NATO, if it wants to be free of Chinese AND American influence. This would hopefully include Japan, Korea, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand.

Unfortunately this sort of community is a long way off.

[siokan]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I believe a compromise would be for Japan to purchase at a reasonable price the U.S. bases and over a five year period slowly take over the operation.

Topic of 3MEF/1st MAW(III Marine Expeditionary Force/1 Marine Aircraft Wing)?