What's it like for an American to live in Japan?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

excuse me what does FOB mean?

Ps there seems to be an awful lot of generalisation from chiuchimu-- everybody does this or wears that? REALLY? everybody?

FOB is short for "Fresh Off the Boat" and is a term usually used by Niseis, Sanseis etc. to describe new arrivals from their mother country (even if they were not born there, but their parents or grandparents were).

It is generally considered a derogatory expression. "Look at that FOB. He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork!"

[WellThatHurt]

Wow. This is just crazy. I stand by what i said earlier. Changing yourself to fit in is just wrong. Basically you aren't really comfortable with yourself if you feel that you have to change yourself to make others happy. I can see if its something that needs changing, but doing it just because youre around a new group of people is just unnecessary.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Pretending to be someone you`re not just to fit in is one thing, being aware of the norms in the country you`re in and not doing things that go totally against them is another.
Do you do the exact same things even when it would go against the cultural and social norms of Japan? This is fine - if you`re prepared to be treated as if you`re doing something weird, as it is weird according to Japanese standards. But if you were to just act exactly as you did outside Japan and then expect to be treated as if your behavior was entirely normal... That is a problem.

I`m not saying this is what you do, but it`s pretty common. Foreigners come to Japan, act exactly as they did back home, and then get extremely irritated and frustrated by a) the weird habits of Japanese people, and b) being treated as if they`re doing something weird... Without ever realizing that they are the ones doing something odd from the Japanese perspective, and that all the "weird" habits of the Japanese people are normal.

As I said I'm not disrepectful or arrogant so if in a situation that requires you to act in a certain way to be respectful I'm happy to do it. I certainly don't just say stuff you I never did that in my home country so I won't do it here! (well there are some things where I might draw a line). But I haven't changed the clothing I wear or have little dangly cute crap hanging off my keitai or had my hair buffed up to look like some character out of some anime.

I come from Melbourne in Australia which is one of the most multicultural cities anywhere. Australia as a whole is a nation that has grown almost solely from immigration. When you walk down a main street in the city you'll likely see people from just about every race on the planet. At times you'll be lucky to hear english spoken. You'll see people dressed in all kinds of clothing similar to what they wore in their home country. And yet no one really walks around thinking look at that foreigner, wow they're weird. Most are not foreigners at all but Australian citizens. All these immigrants recent or otherwise seem to feel little pressure to change the way they look or act to fit in. Many live very similarly to the way they did in their home countries. Sure there's some racism and some interacial tensions but on the whole most get along just fine.

Personally I would love to one day see a Japan where people are accepted in a similar way. Where not being Japanese doesn't automatically label you as gaijin. Where our differences in appearance virtually mean nothing in how we are percieved or treated. Where my daughter who was born here won't have to struggle to be accepted just because of her skin colour.
Of course I don't think I'll be alive in the thousand or so years it'll probably take for this to occur. If it ever does!

[steven]

Let me ask you this: how many times have you gotten angry at "foreigners" because some of them seem to do things that are annoying? I think we all get angry at a group of people to some degree.

To create an example, let me describe some of the characteristics of a pretty normal Japanese (male for convenience) that might stand out in America.

1. He cuts his nails at work.
2. He takes his shoes off all the time while at his desk.
3. He always slurps his noodles.
4. He talks to himself a lot.
5. He drinks his soup straight from the bowl.
6. He's overly apologetic.
7. He looks like he's asleep during meetings.
8. He talks down to people below him at work.
9. He complains about the weather all the time.
10. He likes to eat fish, raw fish, natto, kimchi, etc. at work.

This is just a short list of things. I've heard all of these things complained about by Americans and people from English speaking countries both while in America and while in Japan, so I'd say they are realistic. Assuming this person is fluent in English, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would complain about this (if not formally) if this kind of thing was going on at the work place in some areas. Now imagine the person barely speaks any English at all and doesn't really understand it... I'd bet that would be an even bigger problem.

I'm not suggesting that you take the opposites of these things by imagining yourself as a "foreigner" who is annoying because he doesn't "drink his soup". I'm saying that things on this list have their equivilants in Japan. Not only that, but as we all know Japan is a more homogenous country culturally speaking... I know that is brought up constantly, but I think that makes certain rules, or manners if you like, a lot more firm than they would be in a place like Southern California where accepting different people is expected in the work environment (and not doing so can get you into trouble).

So while I think dying your hair black, getting laser hair removal on your beard and body hair, and getting rid of all the "cuffs" on all your pants is most certainly taking thigns too far, I think that refusing to adapt,even if not on every level, to a country who is letting you stay there is... rude.

It is my opinion that humans are supposed to adapt in all social situations. I'd say that we constantly are. If you meet a new friend or a new group of friends you will start using words and phrases that they use... you will eventually be influenced by their fashion too. It doesn't have to be such a conscious decision. Making a conscious decision to not comply with those things will likely lead to a loss of friendship at some point. I think that's what we're talking about.

[chiuchimu]

Do what you want. Walk into a Japanese home without taking your shoes off. Don't bow in return. Have this, " I'm not going to follow Japanese manners and etequitte because I don't want to change who I am!" cr@p. What a bunch of idiots!

When I said act Japanese, I didn't say change your personality, I said act Japanese so you can fit in. When did I ever imply to Change your personalities??? some Japanese people are talkative, some are quit, some are into Fashion, others are into sports. Given all these different types of people in Japan, they all have no problem behaving properly and being part of the group. Why can't you foreigners also maintain your personalities and mold your behavior to meet Japanese culture, manners and etiquette?

however you act in Japan is your responsibility. you decide what doors open and what doors close. Don't cry about it later and say Japan treated you rotten.

Break the law -you'll go to jail. Act like hooligans - Yanki or bosozoku might mess you up. You reap what you sow.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Do what you want. Walk into a Japanese home without taking your shoes off. Don't bow in return. Have this, " I'm not going to follow Japanese manners and etequitte because I don't want to change who I am!" cr@p. What a bunch of idiots!

When I said act Japanese, I didn't say change your personality, I said act Japanese so you can fit in. When did I ever imply to Change your personalities??? some Japanese people are talkative, some are quit, some are into Fashion, others are into sports. Given all these different types of people in Japan, they all have no problem behaving properly and being part of the group. Why can't you foreigners also maintain your personalities and mold your behavior to meet Japanese culture, manners and etiquette?

however you act in Japan is your responsibility. you decide what doors open and what doors close. Don't cry about it later and say Japan treated you rotten.

Break the law -you'll go to jail. Act like hooligans - Yanki or bosozoku might mess you up. You reap what you sow.

You are changing your stance, Chiuchimu. No one here is saying they should have the right to enter a Japanese home with their shoes on. No one here would be that dense, so please don't make arguments against something that no one is saying.

You were arguing for people to dress and get haircuts like the Japanese natives. That is different.

Just curious, you talk about Nisei vs. "FOBs" (a term I do not like using). So you are not a Japanese native, in that you were not born and raised in Japan, right?

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by steven

to a country who is letting you stay there is...

I agree with much of what you wrote above but it's this line that I'd take a little issue with. I have often seen in this country a bit of a guest mentality from foreigners living here. The concept that we are only guests in Japan and as such we should act accordingly because we are so lucky that the Japanese have 'let' us live here.

Personally I don't feel like a guest. I've worked by butt off whilst being here and have been involved in growing the economy and toursim to the region I work in. And I've paid all my taxes along the way. I've bought a house, had my first child here, I own a business that employs Japanese people and have involved myself in many community events. I've been here almost 7 years and in most other countries on the planet I'd probably have citizenship by now or at least permanent residency.

In a country whose economy has been stagnant or declining for the best part of the last 2 decades you'd think they'd really welcome and encourage people like myself who have invested all they have in their life here....

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by MMM

You are changing your stance, Chiuchimu. No one here is saying they should have the right to enter a Japanese home with their shoes on. No one here would be that dense, so please don't make arguments against something that no one is saying.

You were arguing for people to dress and get haircuts like the Japanese natives. That is different.

Just curious, you talk about Nisei vs. "FOBs" (a term I do not like using). So you are not a Japanese native, in that you were not born and raised in Japan, right?

I said act, talk, and look Japanese. I haven't changed my statement. I even wrote several paragraphs to clarify what I meant. Why not get a haircut like everyone else, Why not dress in whats in? we all do it in our own countries-follow fads and what not, If you don't like the hairstyles and fashions , fine don't follow them. . Regardless of taste, how is wearing Japan fashion giving up something of your self? How is it changing your personality?

That's like saying:
" I'm Joe American, I can't follow Japanese fads, I can only follow American ones!"
That is so lame. everyone follows fads, trends and styles in there respective countries yet, moving to Japan, now following fashion means Changing the core of your being.

If hairstyle, clothes define your personality or defines who you are, then don't change a thing. But don't blame Japan. Long hair and certain clothing means no job for you. Maybe no apartment either. Tatto = No job. Looking a certain way means some people might want to approach you whiles others won't have anything to do with you. Think things carefully and make your choices.

To be clear, no more misunderstandings, I'm saying the more you fit in - the more you are going to fit in. It's your choice on what to do and not do. Whatever you define to be your personality or identity is your business. I never said to change who you are. you decide what happens so don't bitch about it later and say no one told you.

I'm born in Nagasaki Japan, I'm greencard in the U.S. I never said I was nisei, I said it's easy to tell nisei from 'New people'.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Regardless of taste, how is wearing Japan fashion giving up something of your self? How is it changing your personality?

If following fashion is what you're into then it's fine and is part of your personality. I think the issue here is if people think we should change the way we look whether that is part of our personality or not. That we should do it just the same so that we fit in more.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by GoNative

If following fashion is what you're into then it's fine and is part of your personality. I think the issue here is if people think we should change the way we look whether that is part of our personality or not. That we should do it just the same so that we fit in more.

I think your clarification here is very important.

With that, I say it's personal choice.



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