Are you a student?

[protheus]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

You can get a degree without experience but a lot of the time you can't get experience without a qualification (not specifically a degree, but any qualification) so obviously they are always worth doing.

What counts the most is how you "sell" yourself as a great product to the employer, here the degree is a part that counts in the final package, but same is experience.
Just as example, when I've got my interview, I had a mechanic qualification and experience, the others that were picked had University degrees and multiple paper qualifications in the domains required for the job. In my case, in my "package", experience counted as the degrees and qualifications of the others.
After a paid trial month, I was the one that remained there from the 10 selected. Guess why? That sheet of paper was nothing close to the reality of what they really knew / was able to do, even if on it, it was written they can. They "sold" a great "prospect" to the employer, but the final "product" was way under what was expected.

However, if it was the case that someone with the same skill, same experience (I mean, equal to me in every point) and, in plus, with a degree came to that interview I would have lost from the beginning. It's simple, his "package" would have been bigger and better. *

*that's the reason why I made Uni now, while already employed, to make sure that my package is as complete as it can get for "who knows what the future brings".

[ModusOperandi]

Originally Posted by Suki

You think? So why do people even bother? What's the use of university then, if -according to you- people leave uni not being well-prepared to enter the working world? I believe in meritocracy too, but let's be real, not everyone has what it takes to go through a degree. If you were dying and your only chance at surviving was to have surgery, would you let anyone operate on you? I'm guessing you'd want a good surgeon, and if you knew that surgeon had excellent grades and was the best student in his class at med school, you'd feel more confident about letting him slice you open. Right? or would you go "your degree and accreditations do not show the amount of knowledge you have in your brains, I want another surgeon"?

I think? No, I don’t think. I’m just here yapping away for the sake of it.
People bother because they want to attain knowledge (or at least that’s what I’d like to believe) not because they want that piece of paper. But the reality of the matter is that people are there to get a degree because society deemed it necessary to have that piece of paper despite whether or not you have the knowledge/experience/can prove yourself. It’s very easy for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get that piece of paper (no offense to any actual Tom, Dick or Harry that may read this). Already, you have people in this forum who are skilled at various things going through school because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. Their efforts, their experience, their knowledge is under threat/ means next to nothing unless they have that degree. This is a massive flaw in the educational/career system if you ask me. Especially when this paper does nothing except prove that you got it.

Oh and by the way, if I was dying and my only chance at survival was to have surgery, I’d be looking at the surgeon’s success rate. Not his/her college degree and definitely not at his/her grades. You can have a self-taught doctor -- with a degree from a third-world university that teaches next to nothing, mind you -- be more successful than the plaque-hanging Harvard graduate. That’s why internships exist ….especially in the medical field. You can have all the knowledge in the world and the degrees to point to it, but if the mortality rate skyrockets in your hands….then what? It’s okay… because you sir/ma’am, have that piece of paper? Same theory applies to lawyers, educators, artists, managers …you name it.

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Think that'd be valid if someone said 'degrees are everything' but nobody did.

I don't know why it's experience OR a degree. It's possible to gain both.

You can get a degree without experience but a lot of the time you can't get experience without a qualification (not specifically a degree, but any qualification) so obviously they are always worth doing.

Although I agree with most of your post. I have to point to a few things that lead me to my p.o.v. Why exactly do you need a degree/qualification when it proves nothing than the fact you have it. Whether you earned it or just coasted your way to it is anyone’s guess.

And also, why does it have to be “experience and a degree?” Why can’t it be “experience and education?” This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make. A lot of people associate that paper with education when their relationship only goes so far. If it were up to me, there would be a really, really, really, really thick line dividing these two terms. As it stands, there seems to be a synonymous relationship between the two.
People celebrate getting that piece of paper that means they can now walk into the world and try to get jobs that were otherwise inaccessible for whatever reason. Why can’t people celebrate the amount of knowledge they attained during their journey instead of that “paper?” Of course, this is up to them entirely.

Originally Posted by noodle

Why are you mixing cheating into this? Sooner or later, the cheaters will probably get caught and they'll lose their job! Me and a friend done an experiment with this. We both applied for an internship! We both had the same results, he cheated, I didn't! He lasted 3 weeks before he got fired because they figured out he didn't actually know anything!

This is a new argument all together, but not too far off…It’s all up for grabs, but I have to ask: what happens to the other “qualified” individual with a similar degree who lost to the cheater? The cheater may or may not lose their job in the long run, but damage has already been dealt because of that paper.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by ModusOperandi

This is a new argument all together, but not too far off…It’s all up for grabs, but I have to ask: what happens to the other “qualified” individual with a similar degree who lost to the cheater? The cheater may or may not lose their job in the long run, but damage has already been dealt because of that paper.

In that case, you just have to say and understand that: life is not fair. Because lets face it, it's not only cheaters that will take your place. If they know someone, an uncle, a cousin, a friend etc, they could hire them even if they're not suited for the job. Generally though, maybe I'm being naive, the jobs in which this kinda thing happens, is the jobs that don't need smart people or an education. I've been been hired for a job because I knew the manager. It was a sales assistant job. But I was also not taken for a job at my brothers company. It's his company, but he didn't hire me after an interview and everything because he knew I'd just screw things up!

Edit; I will reply to the rest of your post later. But I'd just like to say that you're underestimating degrees. Most companies know when a degree is worthless, like A-Level social studies or something. In my Math and Physics degree, 40% of students fail, 55% get between 10/20 and 12/20. 4% between 12.1/20 and 14/20. And about 4 people get more.

And it's Experience and degree, because most people are educated in one way or another! What the employer wants to know, is whether they're qualified to do a certain job. I know lots of very smart people. They're very cultured and have knowledge of many things. On paper, I'm smarter than them, and that's just not the case. But most of their knowledge is useless to most employers. I'm educated in certain fields, so even if I'm not as smart as my friends, I can do certain jobs better!

[ModusOperandi]

Originally Posted by noodle

In that case, you just have to say and understand that: life is not fair. Because lets face it, it's not only cheaters that will take your place. If they know someone, an uncle, a cousin, a friend etc, they could hire them even if they're not suited for the job. Generally though, maybe I'm being naive, the jobs in which this kinda thing happens, is the jobs that don't need smart people or an education. I've been been hired for a job because I knew the manager. It was a sales assistant job. But I was also not taken for a job at my brothers company. It's his company, but he didn't hire me after an interview and everything because he knew I'd just screw things up!

You're not being naive. You're being very realistic. Life is definitely not fair. My question however, was designed to place more emphasis on just how much the degree factors into this entire thing. The so-called "cheater" was more than ready for the job. He has the same degree the qualified person has, thus gaining him the job he didn't really deserve. That's why I argue that "degrees" generally prove nothing except that you have them... whether or not you put the work into them.

EDIT: And I think you're giving degrees too much credit.

Originally Posted by noodle

Edit; I will reply to the rest of your post later. But I'd just like to say that you're underestimating degrees. Most companies know when a degree is worthless, like A-Level social studies or something. In my Math and Physics degree, 40% of students fail, 55% get between 10/20 and 12/20. 4% between 12.1/20 and 14/20. And about 4 people get more.

I see you're a bit of an elitist. Why would studies in sociology be useless? A field of study is a field of study no matter how you try to look at it. (as long as you're learning and not coasting, that is). Everyone, no matter what their gifted/interested in, has something to contribute to society.
While I find it hard to disagree with drop rates and success rates, How do you measure the skill of an individual who might be gifted theoretically but can't work practically?
How do you begin assessing how the drop/success rates in your particular institution compares to another institution that might produce an equally, if not skilled, individual of the same field of study?

And it's Experience and degree, because most people are educated in one way or another! What the employer wants to know, is whether they're qualified to do a certain job. I know lots of very smart people. They're very cultured and have knowledge of many things. On paper, I'm smarter than them, and that's just not the case. But most of their knowledge is useless to most employers. I'm educated in certain fields, so even if I'm not as smart as my friends, I can do certain jobs better!

You can have an education in a certain field of study whether or not you have a degree. I'm assuming your friends are more skilled to a specific field of study that does not pertain to yours. If what you say about them is true, then they can be capable in their respective area of knowledge and not yours. If I somehow misunderstood and you meant that they're more skilled than you in the same filed, but you only have the paper to show it...then I fail to see the argument here.

I may be reading too much into this but, judging from your statement about sociology and your considering your friends knowledge as useless, I seem to get the notion that because you're pursuing an education in mathematics and physics, you think you're more important. I apologize if I'm reading you wrong.

[MeIsKevin]

I'm into my first year of college, next year I can take computer/programming lessons, but this first year it's just basic stuff, like math and all that boring parts ._.

[dogsbody70]

I don't know because I was never at UNI----------- too busy just surviving-- but Tony Blair was the one who encouraged more school leavers to go to University.

I do not believe that any education is wasted-- and that having a chance to spend a few years studying surely should improve hope of a good career.

It seems too many students go in for IT or Media studies. look for the shortages in the real world; read the adverts in the Class newspapers who advertise for University graduates.

Often when we are young we do not know what we really want to do in life-- so for those who Do- have an end in view they will try to attend courses that will enable them to pursue the desired career.


I often think it depends on THE PARTICULAR COURSE and of course the Teachers? Lecturers.


I believe everybody deserves a crack of the whip-- If there were more apprentice placements in the fields of need for the future-- especially practical skills.


I worry for the students who will finish with enormous debts-- but struggle to find well paid employment.

I should think that time off to work for nothing in certain Businesses or
get work experience-- etc whilst still at UNI/college could be beneficial.

[ModusOperandi]

And there you have it.
I'll call it quits with MisMissa's insightful post.

Although I still hold my opinion, I don't see any resolution but a circular debate that will keep on revolving.
I've had enough time wasted on this to be honest. I've voiced my opinion and so has everybody else. I'll let the T.C. and all those involved come to their own conclusions of what it all means to them.

Thanks for a lively one. :P

[Suki]

Originally Posted by protheus

You think a surgeon goes directly to the cutting business after school? I'm sorry, but it takes years under the tuition of someone with experience to go to that stage, and why do you think that? Because experience is a must. The degree is just a small part of you being a doctor and the legal part requested for that.

Oh I do know that, I'm totally hooked on Grey's Anatomy Why is Cristina Yang the best intern of all? Well, the fact that she was first in her class at Princeton might have something to do with it ^_^

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I think the point was, if two people have a similar amount of experience, but one had a degree, which would you pick? The degree isn't the the primary concern, but between two candidates of similar levels it can be the deciding factor, so if you have the opportunity, why wouldn't you?

University certainly does not teach you everything, which is where you have to use your own initiative. That's where people fail and others succeed, but having a degree can never be a bad thing, and certainly not a waste of time in my opinion

That was my point all along.

[adem940]

I gave up being a student? o.o

[dogsbody70]

any reason why adem?