There are 4 Japanese writing systems not 3

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

But Japanese wouldn't read the Romaji, that is for foreign travelers.

Yeah, that was my point

[RealJames]

this is a pretty one-sided debate :P

[steven]

Originally Posted by MMM

But Japanese wouldn't read the Romaji, that is for foreign travelers.

My point was that Japanese are using the romaji to read the signs.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by steven

My point was that Japanese are using the romaji to read the signs.

I know not so elderly Japanese that can't even read romaji. There might be some people that are forced to use it if they are out of their element, but it is written in romaji to help non-Japanese speakers navigate their way. More Japanese can read hiragana than romaji.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by steven

My point was that Japanese are using the romaji to read the signs.

Find a sign that lacks the romaji. Point this out to those around you.
I think you`ll find that you`re the only one who noticed, or if someone else noticed it was because something seemed "off" but they couldn`t pinpoint what.

Japanese simply don`t read the romaji on signs regualrly. I`ve been in situations where there has been a weird place name written in kanji with the romaji above it... And still seen people puzzle and puzzle over how to read it. I`m pretty certain that those who DO read the romaji are clear exceptions.

Including something as another writing system and simply having knowledge of a system are quite different. Romaji is introduced in school first as part of English learning as a way to figure out how to write your name, not as another facet of Japanese.
Write something (other than a name or single word) in Japanese in romaji, and see how long it takes for someone to figure out what it says. If romaji was truly another writing system of Japanese, that wouldn`t be the case.

I think it`s really hard to make this clear for speakers of European languages, as the majority of commonly learned and used "foreign" languages use the same roman alphabet as the native language. But for Japanese learners, most of the foreign languages commonly learned use a writing system that is NOT native to them. Before starting to learn another language, they need to learn the writing system... Learners native in a European language have the tendency to just convert the foreign sounds into their own alphabet - Japanese learn in the writing system native to the language.

If we are to consider romaji as another writing system of Japanese, we will most likely have to consider it another writing system for most languages that don`t use it natively. The prevalence of English has made it valuable enough that there are few countries where it is not encountered regularly and children do not learn it at some stage.

[steven]

I know what you're saying. It's for foreigners, but Japanese end up using it as "furigana" if they are "out of their element" as you say. Even though it's hard for some Japanese people to read, it ends up working that way. The first time I heard about this was from an elderly Japanese person by the way.

What I'm suggesting is that while the main purpose of the romaji is for foreigners, it ends up being useful for Japanese who might not be familiar with local town names and stuff like that.

You're right though, it'd be easier for Japanese if they just had Hiragana as furigana... but on most Aokans I've seen they only have romaji as furigana for kanji.

[RealJames]

I don't think the romaji is there as a furigana to the kanji, it's really just here for international friendliness...

If you put romaji on a form where it asks for the furigana of your name you'd get laughed at.
(if it's written フリガナ then you write your name in katakana, if ふりがな then in hiragana, I have never ever seen it written in English)

[steven]

I guess I can't express enough that I understand exactly what you're saying.

I deal with people struggling to read/write romaji all the time, trust me. I realize that when writing something in romaji it will take a few seconds to read it (and more for older people).

I agree with you guys very much... but I also kind of have to agree with what Ronin is saying to a degree. I would describe it as like a "sub-system". I'll be frank in that I'm not familiar with the alphabets use in other countries... but if every other country uses it in the same way that Japan does I'd be surprised. At any rate, I guess that's one of the reasons why they call English the "international language".

Honestly though, English is used on virtually EVERYTHING. If it weren't there on certain products I think something would almost feel odd... I think it'd be like missing punctuation or something to that degree.

And I'm also sure that most people I've talked to would probably fall under the "exception" category due to the fact that I'm a foreigner... in other words people who hang around me are probably going to be more sympathetic to these kinds of ideas.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by steven

I guess I can't express enough that I understand exactly what you're saying.

I deal with people struggling to read/write romaji all the time, trust me. I realize that when writing something in romaji it will take a few seconds to read it (and more for older people).

I agree with you guys very much... but I also kind of have to agree with what Ronin is saying to a degree. I would describe it as like a "sub-system". I'll be frank in that I'm not familiar with the alphabets use in other countries... but if every other country uses it in the same way that Japan does I'd be surprised. At any rate, I guess that's one of the reasons why they call English the "international language".

Honestly though, English is used on virtually EVERYTHING. If it weren't there on certain products I think something would almost feel odd... I think it'd be like missing punctuation or something to that degree.

And I'm also sure that most people I've talked to would probably fall under the "exception" category due to the fact that I'm a foreigner... in other words people who hang around me are probably going to be more sympathetic to these kinds of ideas.

I see what you mean. I guess the question is how you'd have to define a "Japanese writing system".

obviously it's not originally Japanese
but neither is Kanji
the difference being the target audience, or intended audience

You mentioned how other countries use English, many countries do actually use English on a lot of products and signs and just as often misspell it using their languages phonetic version of it.

To me it doesn't feel special to Japan

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I see what you mean. I guess the question is how you'd have to define a "Japanese writing system".

obviously it's not originally Japanese
but neither is Kanji
the difference being the target audience, or intended audience

You mentioned how other countries use English, many countries do actually use English on a lot of products and signs and just as often misspell it using their languages phonetic version of it.

To me it doesn't feel special to Japan

My books are in romaji-- It does help in understanding-- before one gets familiar enough with Katakana etc. Otherwise it would take even longer to try to understand.


Once one can follow the Kana-- then I guess there is th eneed to start trying to include Kanji-- but I am a long way from that so far.

There needs to be sentences that include the Kanji along with the KANA.

I do have several books including illustrated examples-- pictures to match the KANA or Kanji.


For beginners I think it is helpful to have both the romaji and the Kana to be able to understand more quickly.#
Once one is confident in the KANA then no more need of the romaji.


So the romaji is certainly useful for ME------------