There are 4 Japanese writing systems not 3

[Ronin4hire]

A friendly debate with a classmate which I thought might be of interest to some people on here.

The 26 letter alphabet and arabic numerals being the fourth.

He said that it doesn't count because it's not "Japanese"

My argument is that neither is Kanji. And the increasing use of the alphabet and especially arabic numerals in Japanese means it should be included (though of course we don't need to familiarise ourselves with it as we already are).

What do you think?

[Nyororin]

I am going to agree with your friend that there are only three - unless you must consider arabic numerals themselves as a separate writing system.

The reasoning being literature. Even in the silliest light novel, you are not going to encounter anything written in romaji. At least, nothing Japanese. If used, it`s going to be for a foreign language or given name.

When things outside of advertisements and cute little not-really-meant-to-be-read slogans on products are written in romaji - THEN it might be considered a fourth writing system. Until then, it`s still really just a novelty.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I am going to agree with your friend that there are only three - unless you must consider arabic numerals themselves as a separate writing system.

The reasoning being literature. Even in the silliest light novel, you are not going to encounter anything written in romaji. At least, nothing Japanese. If used, it`s going to be for a foreign language or given name.

When things outside of advertisements and cute little not-really-meant-to-be-read slogans on products are written in romaji - THEN it might be considered a fourth writing system. Until then, it`s still really just a novelty.

I agree, only 3, romaji is like training wheels for gaijin and for the kakkoi effect because English has a cool-factor

[WingsToDiscovery]

I disagree as well. Until the arabic system is intentionally integrated for the Japanese to use for themselves, then it's not another writing system for them.

For example, Signs/Maps etc with English translations on them are meant to be read by foreigners, not for Japanese people to read the English. And the "Engrish" writing seen on products and stuff is because it's "cool" to have English writing on it and has nothing to do with the product itself. And you can tell this because if the English was actually intended to be read then most Japanese would think it was stupid because most of the time it doesn't even make sense.

And romaji is just a crutch to be able to read Japanese by foreigners who don't want to learn the writing.

[jesselt]

One of the main reasons Romaji exists at all in Japan is just for the benefit of foreigners.

A traveler will be able to read Horikawa Imadegawa but maybe not the Kanji equivalent. I don't think that this really counts as a use in Japan though, because Japanese people aren't going to be reading the Romaji version.

I do find the use of KOBAN interesting for police stations though. A foreigner without any Japanese knowledge isn't going to know what Koban means, so it seems strange they would take the time to write it in Romaji and not just write "Police" instead...

[robhol]

He was right, romaji is just something "we" have come up with, and its actual use is extremely limited. Chinese characters, on the other hand, were basically implemented into Japanese in order to be able to make a writing system - and thus was a part of it "all along". If not, then at least for a fricking long time.

I agree, romaji should be counted as a writing system, but not in a way that makes it seem more important than it is.

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

A friendly debate with a classmate which I thought might be of interest to some people on here.

The 26 letter alphabet and arabic numerals being the fourth.

He said that it doesn't count because it's not "Japanese"

My argument is that neither is Kanji. And the increasing use of the alphabet and especially arabic numerals in Japanese means it should be included (though of course we don't need to familiarise ourselves with it as we already are).

What do you think?

I wouldn't have even bothered replying if this question had come from someone that I knew has never even seriously studied Japanese, but since it's from you, here's my two cents.

It's 3. If I attended kindergarten through university in Japan and still said it was 4, I would be a moron. Japanese is officially written vertically. How does Roman alphabet even fit into that?

Where do you see this "increasing use of the alphabet" that you speak of? I've been living in Japan over 50 years and I can't say that is what I've been witnessing. I don't ever see Roman alphabet being used for communication among Japanese. It may be used for very limited purposes as in train station names for foreign tourists and product or store names for "design or aesthetic" purposes rather than communication purposes.

Are you aware that though you might see signs like SONY, TOYOTA, etc, in Japan, those aren't their official company names? Official business names are ALWAYS registered using the three writing systems, and so are people's names.

My point is that nothing important is ever written in romaji unlike some members here still sadly and ignorantly seem to believe (OP not included). You can live your life, as many older Japanese people actually do, with no problems in Japan without being able to tell A from B.

If this is how someone like myself, who reads and writes a few European languages feels, other Japanese, who are mostly monolingual as you well know, would probably be astounded by a notion that we might have 4. They'd go, "What's the fourth one? Am I illiterate for knowing only three?"

[File0]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I do find the use of KOBAN interesting for police stations though. A foreigner without any Japanese knowledge isn't going to know what Koban means, so it seems strange they would take the time to write it in Romaji and not just write "Police" instead...

Which would be unreadable to everyone who don't know English, and only bring a Japanese dict.
OK most people knows what police means (and not just in English) but still it's reasonable, don't you think?

[steven]

At the risk of taking a lot of slack, I actually agree with Ronin4hire. I have a few reasons for this. I wouldn't say it's like a super "official" writing system, but it is certainly used by most people.

For starters, knowledge of "romaji" is important. It's used for Japanese input on most keyboards, after all. Furthermore it is used on street signs-- above the kanji name of a city, new signs will have romaji. This comes in handy to know how to read the kanji in situations where there are multiple readings. Although this could certainly be done with hiragana, it isn't on a lot of signs. And Japanese people use the "romaji" to be able to read a sign that they aren't familiar with. This is something I've heard come out of the mouths of eldery Japanese and it wasn't like I brought up romaji or anything like that... it just came about in a conversation.

Not that I read too much Japanese, I do notice romaji in different software and hardware manuals.

Sure a lot of people get by without it, but I think there are a lot of people who use it without really thinking about it sometimes.

Although I do admit I agree with why people think it isn't part of Japan's writing system. I just think that because of its prevelance it kind of sneaks in there.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by steven

Furthermore it is used on street signs-- above the kanji name of a city, new signs will have romaji. This comes in handy to know how to read the kanji in situations where there are multiple readings.

But Japanese wouldn't read the Romaji, that is for foreign travelers.