Womens rights in Japan or elsewhere

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Yes, legally.
In marriages, however, they tend to receive the lesser role when it comes to property and the like. (But this is more related to "head of household" on paperwork than gender. A woman can take the head of household role on registration, but it defaults to the husband.)



For the same job with the same hours and same benefits - yes.
Note that I emphasize same in there. I`ll clarify a bit more on this below.



Technically, yes. Do they take advantage of it? That is the bigger question, in my opinion.

For a lot of westerners, it is very hard to comprehend the way this works in Japan. I have probably written more posts on this than any other subject during my time on JF.

I will quote myself from some random posts I made at some point in time that kind of sum things up;
"Japan obviously isn`t perfect, but a determined woman really wouldn`t have too much trouble reaching a high position. The thing is, a lot (dare I say most?) women here don`t want that responsibility. They want to be able to quit on a whim when they get married or have children.

A funny note - In Japan, the fact that fewer women are currently working is considered a sign that the economy is recovering. Why? Because more families can afford to have the mother stay at home. In most cases, working mothers are working out of necessity - not choice. When given a choice (in the case that the husband is making enough to support the household alone) most women will choose to stay at home."

"Look at the popular western female`s opinion of the women in Japan... That they`re all oppressed and held down by the men - without ever bothering to actually look at the fact that the "oppression" is an active choice made by women. Staying at home is the best-case-scenario in most cases. It`s the dream women strive for. Not the "My husband won`t let me work" everyone loves to jump to conclusions about."

"A lot of the "women treated unfairly" stuff is really a myth based on misinterpretation. I`ve covered it a lot in other topics, but basically from a "western" viewpoint, it seems that no one can believe a woman would ever possibly CHOOSE to leave her job and stay at home once she is married/has children. In their eyes, it looks to be "oppression"... Even though the women choose to do so of their own free will. So this big "women are inferior in Japan!" talk spreads. Most women choose to stay home with the kids. Some don`t. Most women are content to take a lower salary because of the lack of strings attached to it - if the company is paying you a lot there is a lot more pressure to continue working... They`ve invested a lot in you. But if it`s lower to begin with (I`m talking like 85% of the average male salary, not like incredibly low), there is very little pressure to keep working once you decide to quit for family reasons. Employers expect it, so everyone parts on good terms. There are companies out there that pay women full salaries - sometimes in the same company there will be two standards - and those are the type of women who generally continue to work. The only reason the lower salary is more common is because the women themselves PREFER it as it takes the pressure off of them in the future."

"I`ve never met a man who has actually thought women were inferior. Even the older generations - they are wane to put responsibility on young women who join companies - mainly for the reasons I have quoted myself about. This doesn`t mean they think they are inferior. It means that they know from experience what generally happens. Superior/inferior has virtually nothing to do with it.

My husband is Japanese, quite traditional, from a traditional family, raised in a small village pretty much isolated from city influence.
He doesn`t think I`m inferior, and is in fact quite jealous of the choices available to me. He is expected to work, but I can choose to either stay home, work, continue my education, etc.
Even in the village where he was raised, it`s generally the women who are actually in charge."

Currently, there is a sort of "affirmative action" law in place for employers (I forget the name of it...) in which they are almost required to hire an equal number of women and men when at all possible and offer them identical positions and salaries.

Companies have an incredibly difficult time finding women who are willing to take those positions. Women will often state from day one that they do not want that level of responsibility, and that they want a position offering the freedom to leave at any time. For women who want to dedicate their lives to a career - companies are MORE than willing to hire them as women in positions of power in a company means tax breaks.

More quotes;
"It`s not "some" women choosing to quit and raise their family. It`s the overwhelming majority.
Take, for example, my husband`s company. In the year he was hired, and the two following years, they hired a total of 42 women. (About the same number of men.) The company has a female manager, and there is no "glass ceiling" preventing them from rising up in the ranks.

Now, five years later, only EIGHT of those women still work there. ALL the others quit of their own volition within those 5 years. The reasons? "Marriage" and "To raise a child" are the overwhelming choices. There were a couple of women who had medical reasons, and a few who just randomly quit, etc. None were fired.

Of the eight remaining, one of them is on my husband`s team, and is getting married next month. The company is trying very very hard to convince her to stay, offering her big bonuses, and literally begging.... She`s an excellent programmer. But she has said that she will most likely be leaving within a couple months of the wedding.

This is pretty much the case all over Japan. Women quit - whether the company wants them to or not - when they get married or have children. Because the women *plan* to do this, they don`t WANT a lot of responsibility on their heads to have to feel bad about when they leave. (Which is very responsible of them.)

I don`t believe that "women`s rights" has to fit the mold of, say, the US in order to exist.

(By the way, out of the 46 men hired during the same 3 year period - only 6 of them have quit.)

It does indeed take longer for a company to trust a woman with high-responsiblity work... Because most of the time they only hang around for as long as a "termporary" worker. Temporary workers, regardless of their gender, also aren`t trusted with important long-term work. The company would be stupid to do so. Imagine giving an important project to someone who just decides to leave in the middle of it!
But after the woman has married and expressed that she will not be leaving, or the temporary worker becomes a full fledged employee... They are treated the same as any other employee.

"smart enough" or "skilled enough" isn`t an issue. It`s the normal rate at which women leave their jobs, regardless of their skill."

Tons of quoting, but I hate to waste time repeating myself.

Dear Nyrororin thanks again. I am making sure that I save this information so I do not bother you Again.

You yourself are an amazing woman.


One thing-- My Japanese friend worked for the same company after college--many years ago until her retirement a few years ago.

Her hours were excessively long. One day she made a strange comment.

she said: "I am a MAN". which I thought was very odd because she is so feminine. she said that so few women would have the responsibilities that she had in the company.

She had been widowed after ten years of marriage, so a friend cared for her two children when She was at work.


her work ethic is still strong-- she is studying here in UK and seldom takes any time off.


Her home had been swept away in an earthquake at one time. she tells me her present home is like a rabbit hutch. made of wood and paper.

I have never known anybody so serious about working and studying and especially her DUTY.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

One thing-- My Japanese friend worked for the same company after college--many years ago until her retirement a few years ago.

Her hours were excessively long. One day she made a strange comment.

she said: "I am a MAN". which I thought was very odd because she is so feminine. she said that so few women would have the responsibilities that she had in the company.

Your friend was right, that kind of lifestyle is very uncommon among women here, rare even.

A side note; maternity leave is a lot longer than it was before.. actually before a woman just had to quit her job after having a child, so we may see more women reentering the workforce more seriously than a part time job while kids are at school... which in itself is not so common...

Another side note: My girlfriend (Japanese) honestly believes that men and women are not equal, and thinks it's silly that anyone would think they are ... I told her someone named Suki on this forum would slit her throat if she heard that ><

[Ghap]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Women in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This site gives a little information-- but needs citations and confirmation.

Do japanese women have equal rights with men?

Are their wages equal to those of men for similar jobs?

do they have the same opportunities in the work market?


Are women ever treated equally-- ANYWHERE?

The Changing Roles of Women in Japanese Society

I would have to say no to all the above!

If only they were in the "western" world!

I would have to say no to all the above!

This is not to say there is not exceptions to the rule.

Are women ever treated equally-- ANYWHERE?

Im probabley on your side but this begs clarification on equal.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by RealJames

My girlfriend (Japanese) honestly believes that men and women are not equal, and thinks it's silly that anyone would think they are ... I told her someone named Suki on this forum would slit her throat if she heard that ><

Just for curiosity sake, how would she say they are more equivalent than equal?

When it comes to equality in the workplace there are many areas that can be changing at different paces. Opportunities may be equal, while respect is not at all, and salaries could be coming closer to parity though still lacking. "Equality" is just to broad a term for any reasonable analysis in my mind. There is also the disparity between business policies and actual practices. Very few companies truly reflect their official corporate image when you get down to the rank and file employees.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

Just for curiosity sake, how would she say they are more equivalent than equal?

When it comes to equality in the workplace there are many areas that can be changing at different paces. Opportunities may be equal, while respect is not at all, and salaries could be coming closer to parity though still lacking. "Equality" is just to broad a term for any reasonable analysis in my mind. There is also the disparity between business policies and actual practices. Very few companies truly reflect their official corporate image when you get down to the rank and file employees.

Sorry for the late reply, for some reason I didn't notice it until the spam post above brought this thread back to the top >< I guess there's something good about spam after all!

I think what you said is entirely true, but what it doesn't consider is that the women themselves don't see themselves as equals.
This is what I meant by it, my girlfriend honestly doesn't see herself or other women as an equal to men, hence why Suki would kill her lol
This is at the root of the problem for sexism in Japan.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RealJames

Sorry for the late reply, for some reason I didn't notice it until the spam post above brought this thread back to the top >< I guess there's something good about spam after all!

I think what you said is entirely true, but what it doesn't consider is that the women themselves don't see themselves as equals.
This is what I meant by it, my girlfriend honestly doesn't see herself or other women as an equal to men, hence why Suki would kill her lol
This is at the root of the problem for sexism in Japan.

|HA HA James why? because they are Superior to MEN. LOL.

Just joking--we are different anyway aren't we.


I think that the wars created opportunities for women who often took over the tasks previously done by men.


Certainly here in UK many women did. Working in the munitions factories, working in the fields- in the FORCES etc etc.


Women are not usually as physically strong as men-- but if the right opportunities are created-- they can do many things.


Seeing videos of how hard the women worked in Japan on the fields-- really hard physical labour------------ THe poverty immediately following the war, similar to many countries--My japanese friend worked in the rice fields from a very early age


Certainly if given good opportunities women are extremely capable in many lines of work-- including the professionals.


I do believe that we think differently from Men in many ways.

My husband has such a logical mind and lateral way of thinking. Not saying that many women do not also have that kind of mind of course-- but I am but a simple uneducated woman HA HA.

I have not read the books re-- men are from Mars and women from Venus-- but I enjoy being a female-- apart from the "CURSE" that we females have to deal with which often can effect our emotions.

I do believe that it is the encouragement and determinedness to AIM and Achieve an ambition that can make an enormous difference-- and if the world out there is prepared to give women similar opportunities as men in often-- previously restricted fields of work-- career-- that they really are very capable of MUCH.


What have great women in Japan achieved if given that chance?

[siokan]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Do japanese women have equal rights with men?

Are their wages equal to those of men for similar jobs?

do they have the same opportunities in the work market?

no no no

It had disappeared by the downfall of the economic environment when the economy of Japan was benign though there was a climate that improved woman's employment.

The charge to employ the man and the woman equally cannot be worked out.
20 years passed after economy had failed......
The employment environment will improve if it recovers though there is no expectation of recovering.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by siokan

no no no

It had disappeared by the downfall of the economic environment when the economy of Japan was benign though there was a climate that improved woman's employment.

The charge to employ the man and the woman equally cannot be worked out.
20 years passed after economy had failed......
The employment environment will improve if it recovers though there is no expectation of recovering.

I wonder about equal pay for equal jobs?

[Ghap]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

|HA HA James why? because they are Superior to MEN. LOL.

Just joking--we are different anyway aren't we.


I think that the wars created opportunities for women who often took over the tasks previously done by men.


Certainly here in UK many women did. Working in the munitions factories, working in the fields- in the FORCES etc etc.


Women are not usually as physically strong as men-- but if the right opportunities are created-- they can do many things.


Seeing videos of how hard the women worked in Japan on the fields-- really hard physical labour------------ THe poverty immediately following the war, similar to many countries--My japanese friend worked in the rice fields from a very early age


Certainly if given good opportunities women are extremely capable in many lines of work-- including the professionals.


I do believe that we think differently from Men in many ways.

My husband has such a logical mind and lateral way of thinking. Not saying that many women do not also have that kind of mind of course-- but I am but a simple uneducated woman HA HA.

I have not read the books re-- men are from Mars and women from Venus-- but I enjoy being a female-- apart from the "CURSE" that we females have to deal with which often can effect our emotions.

I do believe that it is the encouragement and determinedness to AIM and Achieve an ambition that can make an enormous difference-- and if the world out there is prepared to give women similar opportunities as men in often-- previously restricted fields of work-- career-- that they really are very capable of MUCH.


What have great women in Japan achieved if given that chance?

Wow.

I do not agree!.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Ghap

Wow.

I do not agree!.

Care to, I dunno, reason that position, perhaps?