Womens rights in Japan or elsewhere

[RealJames]

alright, I'll try to summarize this in a concise way

a significantly large part of Japan's population considers women and men to have strongly typecast roles, and when those roles are not followed it's strange or different (not necessarily good or bad, just unusual)

this is in essence discrimination, is it not?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

alright, I'll try to summarize this in a concise way

a significantly large part of Japan's population considers women and men to have strongly typecast roles, and when those roles are not followed it's strange or different (not necessarily good or bad, just unusual)

this is in essence discrimination, is it not?

When did this idea that everyone must fill the same role come into place? This is a new one to me, though I have seen the progression slowly move that direction since the 1990s, but it seems like now it has gone to the Borg extreme.

Let's break it down.

a significantly large part of Japan's population considers women and men to have strongly typecast roles,

"Typecast" has a negative connotation, but to "correct" this statement I would say a large part of the population sees men and women taking different roles.

What is wrong with that?

Let's look at the opposite: Men and women should fill the same roles.

Then what is the point of a child having a mother and father? I mean, if men and women are filling the same roles, can't they both fill in for each other perfectly fine? This is modern thinking and I think it is fundamentally and biologically flawed. First of all, men and women cannot fill the same roles, as a man with never birth a child. So from inception, men and women, males and females fill different roles. And that goes beyond just carrying and birthing a baby. But it goes beyond that, and you don't have to look further than the animal world. Name a species where the male and female fill the exact same roles. It simply isn't economical.

But, OK, let's take it to modern human society. Is believing a man and woman should fill the same roles the same fighting discrimination? I don't think so. Discrimination means you think one side is BETTER than the other, simply by association. However, thinking different people are better fit to fill different roles isn't the same thing.

Let's look at traditional Japanese and Western nuclear family structures: The father goes to work all day to support the family and the mother maintains the home and raises the children during the day. Isn't this what we consider an ideal fundamental family structure? What is wrong with this structure? That the father and mother are not doing the exact same things?

OK, then let's put both mom and dad as career-driven money-winners. Kids come home at 3:30, but mom and dad aren't home until 6:00. Who is cleaning the house and getting dinner ready?

Or the other way around, both mom and dad stay home and raise the kids... wait, that can't work. There is no money.

Just because men and women play different roles doesn't mean one is being oppressed or discriminated against.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

When did this idea that everyone must fill the same role come into place? This is a new one to me, though I have seen the progression slowly move that direction since the 1990s, but it seems like now it has gone to the Borg extreme.

Let's break it down.

a significantly large part of Japan's population considers women and men to have strongly typecast roles,

"Typecast" has a negative connotation, but to "correct" this statement I would say a large part of the population sees men and women taking different roles.

What is wrong with that?

Let's look at the opposite: Men and women should fill the same roles.

Then what is the point of a child having a mother and father? I mean, if men and women are filling the same roles, can't they both fill in for each other perfectly fine? This is modern thinking and I think it is fundamentally and biologically flawed. First of all, men and women cannot fill the same roles, as a man with never birth a child. So from inception, men and women, males and females fill different roles. And that goes beyond just carrying and birthing a baby. But it goes beyond that, and you don't have to look further than the animal world. Name a species where the male and female fill the exact same roles. It simply isn't economical.

But, OK, let's take it to modern human society. Is believing a man and woman should fill the same roles the same fighting discrimination? I don't think so. Discrimination means you think one side is BETTER than the other, simply by association. However, thinking different people are better fit to fill different roles isn't the same thing.

Let's look at traditional Japanese and Western nuclear family structures: The father goes to work all day to support the family and the mother maintains the home and raises the children during the day. Isn't this what we consider an ideal fundamental family structure? What is wrong with this structure? That the father and mother are not doing the exact same things?

OK, then let's put both mom and dad as career-driven money-winners. Kids come home at 3:30, but mom and dad aren't home until 6:00. Who is cleaning the house and getting dinner ready?

Or the other way around, both mom and dad stay home and raise the kids... wait, that can't work. There is no money.

Just because men and women play different roles doesn't mean one is being oppressed or discriminated against.

It seems to me like what you've just done is argue that discrimination is ok.
Discrimination isn't about better or worse, just about a bias or prejudgement.
Which is exactly what you pointed out is going on, good or not.

Good or bad, conscious or subconscious, the way these prejudices occur they still have a direct effect on "Women's rights in Japan or eslwhere" (the title of the thread)

on a side note:
the example you gave with both parents working, kids home 3:30 etc.
that was my childhood, both my parents work, I had clubs or whatever on some days and they picked me up on the way home, the independence on the other days did me good. it was a nice life, no problems with that, my mom and my dad both had great jobs, where's the problem in that?
Who is cleaning the house and getting dinner ready?
how filthy does a house get? we cleaned it each weekend as a family, it took a few hours out of sunday afternoon, big deal. My father and mother cooked together or took turns and swapped cleaning afterward... I seriously don't get the issue.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

It seems to me like what you've just done is argue that discrimination is ok.

And it seems to me you haven't addressed my question. Where is the discrimination?

Originally Posted by RealJames

Discrimination isn't about better or worse, just about a bias or prejudgement.
Which is exactly what you pointed out is going on, good or not.

You are getting on a semantical argument, but let's be real. Everyone prejudges. That's a survival mechanism. If we didn't prejudge we would be infants fighting for our lives.

I think you are picking and choosing your definitions of discrimination. I can say "I am a discriminating wine drinker" and mean I choose the wines I like carefully. But I am talking about gender roles and you are talking about oppression. These are VERY different things.

I am saying gender roles are normal in society, and although almost all cultures have had power imbalances in gender equality, modern day Japan isn't nearly as bad as you have written about it, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by RealJames

Good or bad, conscious or subconscious, the way these prejudices occur they still have a direct effect on "Women's rights in Japan or eslwhere" (the title of the thread)

But isn't it all about good or bad? You are implying that any gender role difference = negativity. I am asking you to explore that.

Originally Posted by RealJames

on a side note:
the example you gave with both parents working, kids home 3:30 etc.
that was my childhood, both my parents work, I had clubs or whatever on some days and they picked me up on the way home, the independence on the other days did me good. it was a nice life, no problems with that, my mom and my dad both had great jobs, where's the problem in that?
Who is cleaning the house and getting dinner ready?
how filthy does a house get? we cleaned it each weekend as a family, it took a few hours out of sunday afternoon, big deal. My father and mother cooked together or took turns and swapped cleaning afterward... I seriously don't get the issue.

But, again, you didn't respond to my question. What I presented was considered the ideal. It still is by many standards. I know you made it work, and your family made it work. All families make it work, and sometimes they are more functional living under a bridge than in a mansion, but that isn't the point. The point is, does it make sense for all gender roles to be the same? You haven't addressed my points in that respect and why gender roles work in Japan.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Honestly I don't know if women in Japan are oppressed.

If all you've ever known is 'women stay at home, men work' then generally you are just going to sit back and passively accept your fate.

I can't decide wether this is bad or not. I think a difference is in Japan, that motherhood and being a housewife is seen as something to aspire to, something great, something to work towards and something ultimately rewarding. Like a huge part of yourself is being a good mother.

Here I feel you have that attitude if you are a mother yourself, but nobody really aspires to be a mother. I've never heard anyone say their aspiration is to be a mother. And for some reason if I did hear it, it would make me cringe even though it's silly of me to think that way. Because here we are always told 'you can be anything, follow your dreams' in a way, regardless of gender. So for some reason when people pick, they never pick housewife.

The main point is that the women are doing what they actually want to do, and not what society has influenced them to do. If they are all happy being mothers and it works, I don't really see the problem too much, but because I've been brought up in a nation where nothing like that is fixed, I would ultimately be unhappy if I was expected to be a mother at some point.

Nyororin says, there are opportunities in which women can stay in work should they wish to, it's just that none of them do wish to. Which I can't see and issue with as long as that is the case.

Its strange when you say nobody aspires to be a Mother. My goodness why is it that so many women who cannot actually HAve children-- go to such efforts by alternative means such as IVF surrogacy etc.

Being a Mother should be the most natural thing in the world. Isn't that what the Creation was all about.

I grew up without a mother or a father-- or family at all--and believe me not having that love or security was not easy.

Parenthood is one of the most important and precious parts of life-- and to belittle it in any way-- is to belittle reasons for even BEING.


Being a good parent can reap many rewards-- being a bad parent-- the reverse.

We have discussed this on another thread I believe-- but every child deserves the love and encouragement and security of good parenting.


One only has to watch "SUPER NANNY" to observe how useless and rebellious some children can be when not taught discipline and how to behave in society. simply being totally selfish if they do not experience correct loving guidance.

Unfortunately too many children are born totally unplanned and often unwanted. for many it is too easy to conceive but with modern contraceptives if used--- less unwanted pregnancies would occur.

When parents are never at home-- working most of the time-- which is mostly the case-- it is left to others to bring up the child.

I wanted to be a mother-- to have my own family-- so I made sure I could be at home with my children from birth until they were old enough to be at school. BUT I worked from home-- so was always around if they needed me.


Our home was always open to our childrens friends.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I get that the women aren't complaining about it from a sexism standpoint, which is good I guess. But I've never met a Japanese woman who was exposed to a western relationship and didn't feel instantly envious of the shared cooking/cleaning/etc, even if it's still mostly the woman.

Interesting comment there James. My japanese friend is definitely envious that my husband will do things for me or Her. We share most things.

She really is jealous of that.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

You haven't addressed my points in that respect and why gender roles work in Japan.

I didn't mean to ignore your points, I just felt you'd gone astray arguing if discrimination is good or a necessary evil or unavoidable etc, as opposed to if it exists or not.
Black people would still be slaves if we assumed that racial roles were an affordable evil due to the good they caused economically, which it really did do.

To address your points though.

Gender roles work very well in Japan, they cause this society to be a very well oiled machine and it's almost exemplary, many men and women are happy to play their roles.
Those gender roles are very strong in fact, it's because of that that Japan does so well with them. People follow them without a fuss and seem quite fine with them.

At least until the overworked man commits suicide.
Or until the bored housewife loses all romantic interest in her virtually non-existent husband.
Or until a woman wants to have both a career and a family.

I'm not in a position to argue whether or not this is good, Japan has thrived under these conditions, but it's been the cause of a lot of anxiety and also it's frowned upon by most westerners who see it from the outside.

With regards to discrimination, I'm not talking about the kind of survival discrimination we all use daily. I'm talking about the kind of discrimination that takes away freedom of choice or even the awareness of that choice.

Just to be clear, I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be a housewife.
What I do see as wrong is a woman typecasting herself as a housewife without the option of considering a career. Or if she does have that option, to have a much more difficult time doing it than a man.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Manual labour is a small part of the company as mainly everything is done using computers. The company has many parts, technical design, reliability, marketing and so on.

Personally, I want to design video games. It's a very limited industry for women but it's good for companies to get a female insight into the production of games. If I work hard my oppportunities will be the same as the next guys.

So the women of Japan seem to have these opportunities, but not want to take up on them. Is this a flaw or a functional part of society~

I wish you well in designing video games. I guess its pretty cut throat out there but its about skill and imagination no doubt. Probably good to have a female aspect of the games-- if they will sell. Seems to me there is so much violence on many of them.

certainly not hard physical work. Good Luck to you.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

That`s because if they do, they are told repeatedly that they are better than that. As a child, I wanted very much to be a bride then mother, and have one of those television style housewife lives. I thought it would be absolutely wonderful. No one ever told me I couldn`t work, or that women should stay at home. I just wanted to be a mother and all of that.

The shock was pretty much impossible to miss if I ever said this though - particularly at school. I was always told that I was better than that, that I shouldn`t let anyone decide my future for me (as apparently it was impossible that I would choose that without someone pushing me to), that surely there was something else I wanted to be more. It made me feel as if there was something very wrong with me, as no normal girl wanted to grow up, get married and have children. I went through most of my childhood trying to think up options that other people would approve of. All in all, quite depressing. Being a mother was the bottom of the heap and was NOT something someone wanted to be - it was something they sacrificed their real lives for and put up with.
I was told that I should actually be ashamed as women fought for the right to work, and I would be throwing away all their hard work if I chose to be a mother and stay home when I didn`t have to.



The thing is, a lot of them DO. It isn`t as if it`s hard to find women in the workplace. It`s just hard to keep them there after they get married or have children. There are plenty of female programmers and designers, but because of the hours and pressure of the job most leave after they decide to have children. Video game related careers are famous for extremely stressful and erratic hours toward the end of a project (even more than normal for the IT field)... Not something that lends itself well to having and caring for a child. As being a mother is respected, there is nothing shameful in the woman choosing to leave her position to stay at home with the child.



Quite frankly, if the woman is staying at home through the day while the guy is out working from dawn till dusk... She SHOULD be the one doing the cooking and cleaning.

Anyway though, I think that there is a huge double standard when it comes to Japanese men vs. western men - something which tends to cast undeserved negativity on Japanese men.

In a Japanese man, cooking and cleaning is considered "feminine", "wrong", and pretty much the opposite of what will attract women. In western men, it`s romantic and wonderful. Japanese men are supposed to shut up and earn the money - western men are supposed to be loving and romantic.
Just like how people will notice my son`s beautiful eyes because he`s half... Women notice the loving and romantic traits of western men. Not because they`re necessarily always there, but because they`re supposed to be.
My son`s eyes are dark brown, just like his father`s and everyone else`s. But they MUST be lighter and prettier in color - he`s part foreign! Western men get told how wonderful it is that they help out, how much better they are than Japanese men who never help or cook... Not because Japanese men never help out or cook, but because western men are supposed to be more helpful and "romantic".
Japanese men who cook and clean tend to get rejected by girls because it makes them feel like they`re doing something wrong, because it`s not "cool", because it`s "not right", etc. Because they`re Japanese, it`s not loving or romantic. It`s taken as a criticism.
The same women who go on and on about how they wish they could find a wonderful romantic western boyfriend are the same ones who scream at their husbands for going into the kitchen or kick them out of the house if they`re at home "too much" because men don`t below in the home.

It`s all about perception. My husband cooks and cleans, and loves doing so. It made him about as unpopular as possible with the ladies. If I talk to women who tell me how I shouldn`t have gotten together with an inferior Japanese man because western men are all so romantic and helpful around the house... and I go on to point out that my husband loves to cook and clean and is quite loving and romantic - they make sure to tell me that I must be wrong or that it couldn`t possibly compare to what a western man would do, etc etc. I have no doubt that if these women were in a relationship with a western man who did the exact same level of stuff as the men they`re currently with - they would see every little gesture as something romantic and loving and have nothing but praise.

In real life experience both dating in Japan and in the US - there isn`t much of a difference. It`s down to the individual. The big difference is how women react. Put a western guy and a Japanese guy with pretty much identical traits in a relationship - see how things change once the woman praises the western guy up and down for helping out around the house and being romantic by wanting to be close to her at home... and berates the Japanese guy for not fulfilling his masculine responsibilities by wasting time at home doing girly stuff.



Thank you thank you thank you.
Being a mother is not being oppressed. Being pushed into doing anything that you do not want is being oppressed - be that staying at home or working full time. Being told that your choice is the wrong one and being told to do something else is something that should not happen. You should be free to choose - not just free to choose from a set of limited options.

I wonder how many western men are romantic or for how long?

If a woman is at home all day there should be no need for the breadwinner-- the husband-- to work in the home at all-- unless he Wants to.

I am sure America have been way ahead of us in UK for many years.

Many British men like to go to the Pub after work, chat with other men. I am unsure how long the ROMANCE remains in place.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

I wonder how many western men are romantic or for how long?

If a woman is at home all day there should be no need for the breadwinner-- the husband-- to work in the home at all-- unless he Wants to.

I am sure America have been way ahead of us in UK for many years.

Many British men like to go to the Pub after work, chat with other men. I am unsure how long the ROMANCE remains in place.

only as long as it is absolutely necessary in order to seduce and lock her in to taking care of him